6 ms·

> but it will be extremely helpful for beginners Methinks that kind of summarizes the issue: Microsoft doesn't seem to realize it's not 1995 anymore. "Beginner

by rickmb 15y ago

> but it will be extremely helpful for beginners Methinks that kind of summarizes the issue: Microsoft doesn't seem to realize it's not 1995 anymore. "Beginners" are no longer a big market, and people are more comfortable with "discovering" software interfaces, as proven by the success of web apps, Apple, etcetera.

CoryMathews 15y ago
Have you met people not in the tech world? Tons of people struggle with things as simple as sending emails, or adding music.
- wtallis 15y ago
  I know plenty of people like that. For the most part, they know how to right-click (unless they're using an Apple mouse).
SoftwareMaven 15y ago
Most "normals" I interact with are beginners every time they use the computer. They are not comfortable discovering anything. I can teach them something and be confident in them forgetting it by the next time I talk to them. Things like moving files around directories is black magic to them. Directories are black magic to them. The problem I see with this solution is two-fold: 1. The people who understand this stuff will be comfortable using context menus. 2. The people who don't understand this stuff will be just a stymied by the "move to" being in the ribbon versus being in a never-seen context menu. However, what I would imagine MS is hoping with this is that the people in category two will gradually slide up to category one (well, more like 1a) because these things are in their face all the time.
- sunchild 15y ago
  File systems and file browsers are just never going to be easy for users to understand. That's why Apple is slowly but surely hiding them entirely from "beginners"/"people who don't care to learn how to use their tools". Microsoft's solution is more akin to the way animal researchers teach apes to recognize arbitrary symbols. It's a subtle and pernicious form of vendor "lock in", because when you try to move those users away from their comfort zone in Outlook or Windows Explorer, they feel lost. Personally, I think Microsoft and "people who can't be bothered to learn their tools" deserve each other.
  - mmatants 15y ago
    This. Files and folders are not an optimal paradigm for this stuff. Partly because even real files/folders are not a "civilian" thing, especially now. Plus, there's typically just one level of folder nesting in the real world. The actual user story is always: find what I'm looking for. Google got it right with GMail and informal searching - screw manual organization. Power users should be able to set up structures, but typical computer folks don't need that.
- dhimes 15y ago
  Your comment makes a lot of sense. If true, I think a good series of quick video tutorials would provide a faster outcome.
- xtracto 15y ago
  Oh my. That reminded me of a colleague of mine who thought I was doing "black magic" when I converted from "text to columns" in Excel. Guess what, she has a PhD in Geography. That really emphasizes your point. For me, the problem with the ribbon has been (the times I tried to use Office 2010) that there are some more "advanced" commands (like, inserting a cross-reference to a Figure or Table) which became quite hidden away in the Ribbon. Specially, since in the old toolbar mode, I could add buttons to the actions I used most (I actually have a button for text-to-columns in Excel, or to bring the "insert cross reference" in Word, among others). From my experience, the ribbon does not give you that ability. Actually, every time I have to use the ribbon (my institute's laptop has office 2010) I start imaging an addon which "learns" what are the most used commands and configures the "Home" (or another) ribbon tab showing icons to access those commands. Surely, someone must have already thought of that no?
  - CamperBob 15y ago
    Actually, every time I have to use the ribbon (my institute's laptop has office 2010) I start imaging an addon which "learns" what are the most used commands and configures the "Home" (or another) ribbon tab showing icons to access those commands. Surely, someone must have already thought of that no? This is similar to what MS did with pulldown menus in the pre-Ribbon days. It sounds like a great idea but it turns out to be a terrible one in practice. During the critical "newbie" phase, as a user begins to work with the program, the UI never seems to look the same twice. Tasks that should become reflexive never lose their dependence on the brain. At the same time, more advanced users are left wondering what interesting features they might be missing. You really, really do not want a UI that changes behind your back, or in ways that aren't explicitly commanded. Resorting to discrete novice / expert modes is a venial sin in UI design, but "personalized menus" is a mortal one. It's about the worst thing you can do, and IMO there's no reason to think it would be any better in a ribbon-oriented model than in a menu-driven one. (Edit: I do agree that restricting the adaptive menu scheme to a specific ribbon tab might be a more promising approach than monkeying with the structure and layout of the standard tabs.)
  - ak217 15y ago
    Ummm... do you realize that what you described is exactly the function of the Quick Access toolbar? Also, do you realize that the Ribbon is customizable in Office 2010, in the same way toolbars were customizable in Office pre-2007?
jvandenbroeck 15y ago
Your computer science class isn't a good representation of the market. + It's not because 90% knows how to use a browser that they know how to use explorer, right click & use CTR/ALT
testcock1 15y ago
I think this is a very subjective viewpoint, which is understandable considering the website we're on, but it still overlooks how huge the PC market really is, along with the Windows userbase, and the nature of a lot of its users. There's a huge segment of the Windows userbase who will always be beginners at computers, and their habits and methods are usually mindblowing to any "knowledgeable" user. One such example was the mass of people who typed "facebook login" into Google any time they wanted to log-in into Facebook, and got thoroughly confused and angry when the first hit suddenly led them to ReadWriteWeb's article on Facebook's log-in, filling the comments section with cries of where is the log-in, what is this crap, shitty re-design, let me in!, etc. Because of users like this, Microsoft is where it is. Any big revamp, and they'll just get millions of confused customers who suddenly can't make sense of the most basic functionality. It is Microsoft's own doing that they made their users get used to interfaces like this, but it's not as easy as just scraping it and throwing up something new. It's also easy to forget that Windows has a userbase 10 times its nearest competitor (which is to say this brings in challenges which competitors might not face).
- hackinthebochs 15y ago
  >It is Microsoft's own doing that they made their users get used to interfaces like this Jesus, the amount of Microsoft-bashing in on this article is insane.

by rickmb 15y ago

CoryMathews 15y ago

Have you met people not in the tech world? Tons of people struggle with things as simple as sending emails, or adding music.

wtallis 15y ago
I know plenty of people like that. For the most part, they know how to right-click (unless they're using an Apple mouse).

SoftwareMaven 15y ago

Most "normals" I interact with are beginners every time they use the computer. They are not comfortable discovering anything. I can teach them something and be confident in them forgetting it by the next time I talk to them. Things like moving files around directories is black magic to them. Directories are black magic to them. The problem I see with this solution is two-fold: 1. The people who understand this stuff will be comfortable using context menus. 2. The people who don't understand this stuff will be just a stymied by the "move to" being in the ribbon versus being in a never-seen context menu. However, what I would imagine MS is hoping with this is that the people in category two will gradually slide up to category one (well, more like 1a) because these things are in their face all the time.

sunchild 15y ago
File systems and file browsers are just never going to be easy for users to understand. That's why Apple is slowly but surely hiding them entirely from "beginners"/"people who don't care to learn how to use their tools". Microsoft's solution is more akin to the way animal researchers teach apes to recognize arbitrary symbols. It's a subtle and pernicious form of vendor "lock in", because when you try to move those users away from their comfort zone in Outlook or Windows Explorer, they feel lost. Personally, I think Microsoft and "people who can't be bothered to learn their tools" deserve each other.
- mmatants 15y ago
  This. Files and folders are not an optimal paradigm for this stuff. Partly because even real files/folders are not a "civilian" thing, especially now. Plus, there's typically just one level of folder nesting in the real world. The actual user story is always: find what I'm looking for. Google got it right with GMail and informal searching - screw manual organization. Power users should be able to set up structures, but typical computer folks don't need that.
dhimes 15y ago
Your comment makes a lot of sense. If true, I think a good series of quick video tutorials would provide a faster outcome.
xtracto 15y ago
Oh my. That reminded me of a colleague of mine who thought I was doing "black magic" when I converted from "text to columns" in Excel. Guess what, she has a PhD in Geography. That really emphasizes your point. For me, the problem with the ribbon has been (the times I tried to use Office 2010) that there are some more "advanced" commands (like, inserting a cross-reference to a Figure or Table) which became quite hidden away in the Ribbon. Specially, since in the old toolbar mode, I could add buttons to the actions I used most (I actually have a button for text-to-columns in Excel, or to bring the "insert cross reference" in Word, among others). From my experience, the ribbon does not give you that ability. Actually, every time I have to use the ribbon (my institute's laptop has office 2010) I start imaging an addon which "learns" what are the most used commands and configures the "Home" (or another) ribbon tab showing icons to access those commands. Surely, someone must have already thought of that no?
- CamperBob 15y ago
  Actually, every time I have to use the ribbon (my institute's laptop has office 2010) I start imaging an addon which "learns" what are the most used commands and configures the "Home" (or another) ribbon tab showing icons to access those commands. Surely, someone must have already thought of that no? This is similar to what MS did with pulldown menus in the pre-Ribbon days. It sounds like a great idea but it turns out to be a terrible one in practice. During the critical "newbie" phase, as a user begins to work with the program, the UI never seems to look the same twice. Tasks that should become reflexive never lose their dependence on the brain. At the same time, more advanced users are left wondering what interesting features they might be missing. You really, really do not want a UI that changes behind your back, or in ways that aren't explicitly commanded. Resorting to discrete novice / expert modes is a venial sin in UI design, but "personalized menus" is a mortal one. It's about the worst thing you can do, and IMO there's no reason to think it would be any better in a ribbon-oriented model than in a menu-driven one. (Edit: I do agree that restricting the adaptive menu scheme to a specific ribbon tab might be a more promising approach than monkeying with the structure and layout of the standard tabs.)
- ak217 15y ago
  Ummm... do you realize that what you described is exactly the function of the Quick Access toolbar? Also, do you realize that the Ribbon is customizable in Office 2010, in the same way toolbars were customizable in Office pre-2007?

jvandenbroeck 15y ago

Your computer science class isn't a good representation of the market. + It's not because 90% knows how to use a browser that they know how to use explorer, right click & use CTR/ALT

testcock1 15y ago

I think this is a very subjective viewpoint, which is understandable considering the website we're on, but it still overlooks how huge the PC market really is, along with the Windows userbase, and the nature of a lot of its users. There's a huge segment of the Windows userbase who will always be beginners at computers, and their habits and methods are usually mindblowing to any "knowledgeable" user. One such example was the mass of people who typed "facebook login" into Google any time they wanted to log-in into Facebook, and got thoroughly confused and angry when the first hit suddenly led them to ReadWriteWeb's article on Facebook's log-in, filling the comments section with cries of where is the log-in, what is this crap, shitty re-design, let me in!, etc. Because of users like this, Microsoft is where it is. Any big revamp, and they'll just get millions of confused customers who suddenly can't make sense of the most basic functionality. It is Microsoft's own doing that they made their users get used to interfaces like this, but it's not as easy as just scraping it and throwing up something new. It's also easy to forget that Windows has a userbase 10 times its nearest competitor (which is to say this brings in challenges which competitors might not face).

hackinthebochs 15y ago
>It is Microsoft's own doing that they made their users get used to interfaces like this Jesus, the amount of Microsoft-bashing in on this article is insane.