11 ms·

The first problem with the article here is that some of the buttons (Move To, Copy To) did not exist previously. They are also extensions of existing functions

The first problem with the article here is that some of the buttons (Move To, Copy To) did not exist previously. They are also extensions of existing functions (Move, Copy) - so concluding that half the UI is covered by buttons that were not used is an inaccurate assumption. Secondly, the actions are being moved from the context menu to the ribbon. Most new computer users find it very hard to remember additional, non intuitive actions like right clicking & context menus. Each of these is a 'modifier' that power users are used to, but which make the mental model of file manipulation much harder for beginners to wrap their heads around. They have to remember to apply these modifiers to see if the functions they want exist. Moving the functions into a contextually aware ribbon will make life much easier for these users. Third, Move, Copy, Delete & Rename occupy the center of the ribbon. These are the most used commands (by far) and rightfully occupy center stage. Power users will call it clutter, but it will be extremely helpful for beginners. [Disclaimer: MSFT Employee, but I do not work on Windows]

dhimes 15y ago
Most new computer users find it very hard to remember additional, non intuitive actions like right clicking & context menus I didn't realize this. In fact, if I were asked to guess, I would have answered that most new users would pick up pretty quickly how to use context menus, especially if the context menus had related commands like file manipulation if in Windows Explorer (is it still called that?), or formatting if in a text document, etc. Hell, rats in a cage can learn what to push in order to eat, so I would have thought that people would be able to learn this. Of course, it would help if they were told somehow and didn't have to discover it.
- riffic 15y ago
  agree, in fact UI like this encourages a user to develop bad usage habits, which will remain with them for an indefinite amount of time until these behaviors are (if ever) unlearned.
  - sukuriant 15y ago
    What are bad usage habits? (since we're on topic: I'm an MS employee. I do not work on Windows Explorer)
    - bostonvaulter2 15y ago
      I'm guessing riffic meant using the copy and paste buttons instead of the keyboard shortcuts, but I don't agree that that is a "bad usage habit".
- cwbrandsma 15y ago
  Work in support sometime. It is EXTREMELY common to find users that really don't know about right-click. Or that double-click everything. These are not new users either, they have been using computers for decades. For new users I might agree that they could figure out a right click because everything is new. But for users where everything is familiar ("I've always done it this way"), it gets much harder to break those expected actions. Second part is about explorer itself. While it might seem like a common utility (even necessary), I find it very rare for a general user to know about it (my wife does not, nor my parents, siblings, their friends,...but my wife's father does). Once they see it, they have no idea what to do. Copy a file? Really, they have no idea.
  - ajross 15y ago
    Do those users use the desktop shell at all though? In my experience with novice users (across platforms: Mac noobs are no better) is that they only know enough to launch apps. They never touch the desktop integration at all.
    - sukuriant 15y ago
      When my grandfather uses the computer, he reorganizes the desktop, and puts files in folders, and sometimes wants to delete things, yes. All of those actions require knowing how to [delete], [open folders], [drag and drop].
    - alextingle 15y ago
      This is only because the Finder/Explorer has been made harder and harder to use. Apple's OSX Finder is a shocking UI abomination. Their old MacOS Finder was clear and simple - my wife would spend hours arranging her work in coloured folders, each of which opened in a window whose shape and position she had chosen, and was meaningful to her. It was a powerful tool that enabled her to arrange and group her work. Now, both Apple and Microsoft compete with each other over how bad they can make their file system interface. Microsoft wanted to do away with the filesystem in Longhorn, and Apple have actually done so in iOS. Is this progress??
- tjogin 15y ago
  Invisible actions are harder to discover than visible ones, not that illogical really, and one of the key ways in which the Mac is more user friendly as it depends on context menus to a lesser degree.
  - dhimes 15y ago
    While I agree with all of your points, keep in mind that when 'civilians' were just getting to use computers (being forced to at work, etc.), Mac lost in favor of the IBM-compatibles (what people started calling 'pc's). There are a lot of reasons for this, to be sure, but difficulty of using the PC was not something that carried much weight in the argument (I was there for the arguments, and I was a mac man).
    - wpietri 15y ago
      True, but for reasons closely related to this discussion. Back in the day, the benefits of Macs were mostly invisible to novices when making a purchase decision. PCs looked cheaper and safer. Apple has learned a lesson here. They are now heavily optimized for ease and comfort of purchase.
- 51Cards 15y ago
  Yes but people don't WANT to learn things like this. My mother doesn't want to remember what mouse button to click or that CTRL or ALT is a modifier on this command. I would argue that THIS is what made Apple's OS hang on all those years it was in the severe minority. There is a segment of the population that wants only one mouse button to click, not 3, not 3 plus CTRL or ALT or etc. Apple did end up having to rely heavily on their option key to extend functionality but at its root the UI was designed so that the average user could do things in a simple, straightforward way. MS sees visually exposing commands to the user as their way to do it and while I may not entirely agree, I don't think it's without merit. My kudos to them for also letting me as a "power user" collapse the "newbie visual noise" off my screen and drop what I want on a custom quick access bar. Remember: don't let your status as a power user cloud your view of how your grandmother might want to use her computer. There are FAR more 'grandmother' grade users than there are us.
  - dhimes 15y ago
    Then why are the ipad and iphone taking off? It's really hard to learn to do things on those devices. It's cumbersome to turn off wifi and bluetooth to save battery. The control location makes no sense in the settings menu (to my mind, anyway). I was a HUGE Apple fan for the early Macs. I totally get what you are saying. But we LOST in the workplace. It was just too slow for the other folks in the office to use (of course, the real death blow was having only a graphics mode to the display so the typing was dreadfully slow-- and the secretaries wouldn't use them- but that's another story). But I get your point. That's why I phrased my response as I did. I have never done UI/UX testing- maybe the parent has and was sharing his insight. But if we are all just speculating, I've got to throw out a shout for the other point of view. Yes, too many (how many is too many? I don't know) and it gets to be like using VIM. But two buttons? Seems like it should be ok.
    - serge2k 15y ago
      Probably because people think it looks fun and are wiling to put in the few minutes it takes to not a be completely useless with the device.
    - 15y ago
- nickknw 15y ago
  > In fact, if I were asked to guess, I would have answered that most new users would pick up pretty quickly how to use context menus As someone who has done a fair amount of tutoring seniors on basic computer usage, I have a large amount of anecdotal evidence to indicate this is definitely not the case for them. Depending on the person, I would sometimes try to not show them context menus or keyboard shortcuts at all and just teach them how to use the File, Edit, etc. menus. There are people who just want to learn the correct order of incantations so that they can check their mail and do things with their photos. And that's okay! Trying to show them that that there is more than one way to do a given action often just leads to confusion as they meld them together (right click on Edit..) I have seen a fair amount of people with a similar approach as well, but my largest body of personal experience comes from the tutoring, which is why I mentioned it.
  - xtracto 15y ago
    >There are people who just want to learn the correct order of incantations so that they can check their mail and do things with their photos I have been seeing the same thing with research colleagues. What a lot of us in IT or related fields do not "get" from normal users is that the way they "see" the icons and pictures in the computer is completely different from what we do. We have a "mental model" of what Word or Excel or Firefox is doing. Some of us have a more accurate and detailed model than others. But "normal" users only know what they see and what will happen after they do something (either because they have done it before or because we told them, and they trust us). For them, there is no more meaning to "click on the File menu" than if a Scuba diver told you to "check your SPG every 10 minutes".
- Qz 15y ago
  The main problem with right clicking is that right clicking does a myriad different things depending on what is being clicked on, whereas left clicking almost always does the same thing.
- larrywright 15y ago
  It begs the question though... other than children, how many "new" computer users are there?
rickmb 15y ago
> but it will be extremely helpful for beginners Methinks that kind of summarizes the issue: Microsoft doesn't seem to realize it's not 1995 anymore. "Beginners" are no longer a big market, and people are more comfortable with "discovering" software interfaces, as proven by the success of web apps, Apple, etcetera.
- CoryMathews 15y ago
  Have you met people not in the tech world? Tons of people struggle with things as simple as sending emails, or adding music.
  - wtallis 15y ago
    I know plenty of people like that. For the most part, they know how to right-click (unless they're using an Apple mouse).
- SoftwareMaven 15y ago
  Most "normals" I interact with are beginners every time they use the computer. They are not comfortable discovering anything. I can teach them something and be confident in them forgetting it by the next time I talk to them. Things like moving files around directories is black magic to them. Directories are black magic to them. The problem I see with this solution is two-fold: 1. The people who understand this stuff will be comfortable using context menus. 2. The people who don't understand this stuff will be just a stymied by the "move to" being in the ribbon versus being in a never-seen context menu. However, what I would imagine MS is hoping with this is that the people in category two will gradually slide up to category one (well, more like 1a) because these things are in their face all the time.
  - sunchild 15y ago
    File systems and file browsers are just never going to be easy for users to understand. That's why Apple is slowly but surely hiding them entirely from "beginners"/"people who don't care to learn how to use their tools". Microsoft's solution is more akin to the way animal researchers teach apes to recognize arbitrary symbols. It's a subtle and pernicious form of vendor "lock in", because when you try to move those users away from their comfort zone in Outlook or Windows Explorer, they feel lost. Personally, I think Microsoft and "people who can't be bothered to learn their tools" deserve each other.
wtallis 15y ago
According to Microsoft's data, more than 85% of the command usage in Explorer is through keyboard shortcuts or context menus. Clearly, it isn't that hard to get used to using context menus and keyboard shortcuts. It seems to me that a lot of people here on HN are simply using this issue to talk about how much better they are at using a computer than the ordinary person, who is apparently quite inept. Unless there is convincing evidence that people that incompetent are still a significant fraction of the userbase, we should stop designing desktop software to accommodate people who are not able to master the use of an iPad.
- brudgers 15y ago
  >"Clearly, it isn't that hard to get used to using context menus and keyboard shortcuts." What this may show is that it is mainly experienced users who use Explorer. And based on my personal experience, I believe this to be the case - most people do not know what Explorer is for, let alone how to use it efficiently. The reason for using the context menu use in my case is that most options are available only from the context menu...e.g. "edit", "extract [from zip] all", etc. and it is only through many years of trial and error that I have developed any efficiency with the context menu - this is because the problem with context menu operations is that they require enough experience to recognize the context and remember what [hidden] commands will be revealed by a right-click. The advantage of the ribbon is that context menus are made visible when the context is entered, thus allowing less experienced users explore options more easily. Also, the issue with traditional context menus is that they are a mixture of fixed elements [cut, copy, paste, properties] and context specific items [extract all].
- varunsrin 15y ago
  This is a classic case of misinterpreting the data - 85% use it because the only way you can copy, without using a context menu or a keyboard shortcut is by holding down Alt and then clicking on the Edit menu.The point is, people use keyboard shortcuts & context menus because they have to today. This is the danger with reading too much into simple data - just because 85% of the people do X, it doesn't mean that X is good. Do you expect the data to show that people don't copy paste because its not intuitive? No, in most cases they 'have' to learn it, and figure it out by asking a friend, but they don't enjoy the learning process (and indirectly, resent the platform itself). Everyone who struggled with the concept of right clicking eventually learnt it - the problem is not that right clicking or context menus are impossible to learn. It's that they're not a natural way of interaction, and should be eliminated whenever possible. You shouldn't have to learn to use a menu to do what you want, especially when 80% of the time you just need 4 actions. The simplicity of modifiers (tap, double tap, swipe) is what makes touch platforms like iOS very intuitive. A direct, clickable button ensures that novice users can accomplish simple file management tasks by learning a single modifier (the click).
hernan7 15y ago
The "copy to" and "move to" buttons, seem to be some variation on the old "send to" command, which is currently available via both right-click and menu bar. (For those not familiar with Windows: if I select a file, the "send to" options are: compressed folder, create desktop shortcut, documents, fax, email, burn to DVD, network directory.) Personally, that's an command that I never use; not sure how popular it is with the Windows userbase in general.
- aw3c2 15y ago
  It is one thing I love to show "normal" people. They can use it to easily copy files to eg USB sticks or even select images to send by mail. These are tremendously useful for those people.
  - hernan7 15y ago
    Fair enough. Usually, when I copy files to USB I have 2 windows open and drag from one to another. The "send to" email, however: I don't think you can use it with any web-based email, correct? Do people usually have Outlook set up on their machines these days?
- watmough 15y ago
  Yes, here's a place they really could have done something cool with the UI, and spiffed up a be-cobwebbed corner of Explorer. In XP, there's a folder that you can put folder and program shortcuts in, that will populate the send to menu. In fact, this essentially is my quicklaunch method when using XP. Just put a link to notepad2 in there, and you can view anything in ascii. Rinse and repeat. It's so useful in fact, that they might have been able to bring it into wider usage, and maintain continuity with older Windows, by adding a context menu such as 'Make me a send to place', which would add a shortcut to the clicked folder or application into the send to menu. To me on OS X, the Finder sidebar and Dock are the rough equivalent. 90% of my Finder work is selection and dragging to the sidebar, or Dock, the same thing I would use send to on Windows for.
- icebraining 15y ago
  >(For those not familiar with Windows: if I select a file, the "send to" options are: compressed folder, create desktop shortcut, documents, fax, email, burn to DVD, network directory.) There's one more: if you have a bluetooth adapter (or a laptop with embedded support), it shows a 'Send to Bluetooth device'. I find this very useful for sending files to my phone.
dendory 15y ago
"New computer users" ?! People who use Windows are, for the most part, not new computer users. More and more the new users go to a Mac, tablet or smartphone. The point of that article is that people already use hotkeys and context menus. So building a bigger menu and toolbar is crazy.
woobar 15y ago
'Move To' and 'Copy To' existed for a long time. I have them on Windows XP. They are not on a toolbar by default, by anyone can add them. Nobody knows about them for one reason - they are useless. Screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/5e5xN.jpg http://i.imgur.com/5e5xN.jpg
- seabee 15y ago
  they're on the toolbar in Vista and Win 7. In XP they're not on the toolbar but they're on the side bar that is shown by default. Edit: Vista/7 may not be completely true, but it's certainly that way on my untechnically-minded mother's laptop - probably the result of context (e.g. in a library of pictures) or a setting somewhere.
raster_blaster 15y ago
Move To and Copy To have existed since at least XP: http://i.imgur.com/NsPGD.png http://i.imgur.com/NsPGD.png But they had to be put there by the user. :)
perlgeek 15y ago
I don't have a Windows system at hand now, so I can't check it... but didn't "Copy To" exist as "Context Menu -> Send to" before?
- dmethvin 15y ago
  There is a "Send To Any Folder" utility that you can put in there, but it's not a standard feature.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
leon_ 15y ago
What makes you think that new computer users who can't remember "non intuitive" concepts like right clicking and context menus will know what cut/copy/paste on files does?
- varunsrin 15y ago
  Again, cut/copy/paste are technical terms - the intent a user is likely to form is, I have this word file here, and i need to put it onto this USB drive here. The large copy to button in the ribbon accomplishes that task nicely. Remember, its not that user's cant remember right clicking, its that they shouldn't have to. Why should you need two different types of clicks, and 2 sub menus to Send a file to a drive, when you can accomplish it with a single click and a single sub-menu (as is demonstrated in the ribbon) Making the initial learning curve simple will have implications on the overall feel & appeal of the operating system, but this is something that is difficult to quantify with simple software metrics.
  - leon_ 15y ago
    > Making the initial learning curve simple will have implications on the overall feel & appeal of the operating system, but this is something that is difficult to quantify with simple software metrics. Ok, but the file system metaphor with its files and folders is unintuitive. New users get lost or just don't get that metaphor. You won't make anything easier for them by putting bigger buttons into the toolbar when they can't imagine for what those buttons might be used. Alone the metaphor of "copying" a file is so unintuitive. If my mother wants to take a look at the photos she took with her cam she sure won't think about "copying" them. My point is: MS is trying to fix the wrong problem. They should think about getting rid of end user facing file systems instead of bolting bigger and brighter buttons onto a horribly user unfriendly application like the explorer.
Kwpolska 15y ago
Move To and Copy To exist in XP.
- iaskwhy 15y ago
  But they are not shown by default on Vista or 7 (which I guess is where their data comes from).
azylman 15y ago
Came here to say this, only I don't work for Microsoft. He takes you guys' research that says most people use it from the context menu and uses that to say that it should continue to be that way. It's like, since when are companies not allowed to try to improve their UI? Just because most people use it there doesn't make it the best option.

dhimes 15y ago

Most new computer users find it very hard to remember additional, non intuitive actions like right clicking & context menus I didn't realize this. In fact, if I were asked to guess, I would have answered that most new users would pick up pretty quickly how to use context menus, especially if the context menus had related commands like file manipulation if in Windows Explorer (is it still called that?), or formatting if in a text document, etc. Hell, rats in a cage can learn what to push in order to eat, so I would have thought that people would be able to learn this. Of course, it would help if they were told somehow and didn't have to discover it.

riffic 15y ago
agree, in fact UI like this encourages a user to develop bad usage habits, which will remain with them for an indefinite amount of time until these behaviors are (if ever) unlearned.
- sukuriant 15y ago
  What are bad usage habits? (since we're on topic: I'm an MS employee. I do not work on Windows Explorer)
  - bostonvaulter2 15y ago
    I'm guessing riffic meant using the copy and paste buttons instead of the keyboard shortcuts, but I don't agree that that is a "bad usage habit".
cwbrandsma 15y ago
Work in support sometime. It is EXTREMELY common to find users that really don't know about right-click. Or that double-click everything. These are not new users either, they have been using computers for decades. For new users I might agree that they could figure out a right click because everything is new. But for users where everything is familiar ("I've always done it this way"), it gets much harder to break those expected actions. Second part is about explorer itself. While it might seem like a common utility (even necessary), I find it very rare for a general user to know about it (my wife does not, nor my parents, siblings, their friends,...but my wife's father does). Once they see it, they have no idea what to do. Copy a file? Really, they have no idea.
- ajross 15y ago
  Do those users use the desktop shell at all though? In my experience with novice users (across platforms: Mac noobs are no better) is that they only know enough to launch apps. They never touch the desktop integration at all.
  - sukuriant 15y ago
    When my grandfather uses the computer, he reorganizes the desktop, and puts files in folders, and sometimes wants to delete things, yes. All of those actions require knowing how to [delete], [open folders], [drag and drop].
  - alextingle 15y ago
    This is only because the Finder/Explorer has been made harder and harder to use. Apple's OSX Finder is a shocking UI abomination. Their old MacOS Finder was clear and simple - my wife would spend hours arranging her work in coloured folders, each of which opened in a window whose shape and position she had chosen, and was meaningful to her. It was a powerful tool that enabled her to arrange and group her work. Now, both Apple and Microsoft compete with each other over how bad they can make their file system interface. Microsoft wanted to do away with the filesystem in Longhorn, and Apple have actually done so in iOS. Is this progress??
tjogin 15y ago
Invisible actions are harder to discover than visible ones, not that illogical really, and one of the key ways in which the Mac is more user friendly as it depends on context menus to a lesser degree.
- dhimes 15y ago
  While I agree with all of your points, keep in mind that when 'civilians' were just getting to use computers (being forced to at work, etc.), Mac lost in favor of the IBM-compatibles (what people started calling 'pc's). There are a lot of reasons for this, to be sure, but difficulty of using the PC was not something that carried much weight in the argument (I was there for the arguments, and I was a mac man).
  - wpietri 15y ago
    True, but for reasons closely related to this discussion. Back in the day, the benefits of Macs were mostly invisible to novices when making a purchase decision. PCs looked cheaper and safer. Apple has learned a lesson here. They are now heavily optimized for ease and comfort of purchase.
51Cards 15y ago
Yes but people don't WANT to learn things like this. My mother doesn't want to remember what mouse button to click or that CTRL or ALT is a modifier on this command. I would argue that THIS is what made Apple's OS hang on all those years it was in the severe minority. There is a segment of the population that wants only one mouse button to click, not 3, not 3 plus CTRL or ALT or etc. Apple did end up having to rely heavily on their option key to extend functionality but at its root the UI was designed so that the average user could do things in a simple, straightforward way. MS sees visually exposing commands to the user as their way to do it and while I may not entirely agree, I don't think it's without merit. My kudos to them for also letting me as a "power user" collapse the "newbie visual noise" off my screen and drop what I want on a custom quick access bar. Remember: don't let your status as a power user cloud your view of how your grandmother might want to use her computer. There are FAR more 'grandmother' grade users than there are us.
- dhimes 15y ago
  Then why are the ipad and iphone taking off? It's really hard to learn to do things on those devices. It's cumbersome to turn off wifi and bluetooth to save battery. The control location makes no sense in the settings menu (to my mind, anyway). I was a HUGE Apple fan for the early Macs. I totally get what you are saying. But we LOST in the workplace. It was just too slow for the other folks in the office to use (of course, the real death blow was having only a graphics mode to the display so the typing was dreadfully slow-- and the secretaries wouldn't use them- but that's another story). But I get your point. That's why I phrased my response as I did. I have never done UI/UX testing- maybe the parent has and was sharing his insight. But if we are all just speculating, I've got to throw out a shout for the other point of view. Yes, too many (how many is too many? I don't know) and it gets to be like using VIM. But two buttons? Seems like it should be ok.
  - serge2k 15y ago
    Probably because people think it looks fun and are wiling to put in the few minutes it takes to not a be completely useless with the device.
  - 15y ago
nickknw 15y ago
> In fact, if I were asked to guess, I would have answered that most new users would pick up pretty quickly how to use context menus As someone who has done a fair amount of tutoring seniors on basic computer usage, I have a large amount of anecdotal evidence to indicate this is definitely not the case for them. Depending on the person, I would sometimes try to not show them context menus or keyboard shortcuts at all and just teach them how to use the File, Edit, etc. menus. There are people who just want to learn the correct order of incantations so that they can check their mail and do things with their photos. And that's okay! Trying to show them that that there is more than one way to do a given action often just leads to confusion as they meld them together (right click on Edit..) I have seen a fair amount of people with a similar approach as well, but my largest body of personal experience comes from the tutoring, which is why I mentioned it.
- xtracto 15y ago
  >There are people who just want to learn the correct order of incantations so that they can check their mail and do things with their photos I have been seeing the same thing with research colleagues. What a lot of us in IT or related fields do not "get" from normal users is that the way they "see" the icons and pictures in the computer is completely different from what we do. We have a "mental model" of what Word or Excel or Firefox is doing. Some of us have a more accurate and detailed model than others. But "normal" users only know what they see and what will happen after they do something (either because they have done it before or because we told them, and they trust us). For them, there is no more meaning to "click on the File menu" than if a Scuba diver told you to "check your SPG every 10 minutes".
Qz 15y ago
The main problem with right clicking is that right clicking does a myriad different things depending on what is being clicked on, whereas left clicking almost always does the same thing.
larrywright 15y ago
It begs the question though... other than children, how many "new" computer users are there?

rickmb 15y ago

> but it will be extremely helpful for beginners Methinks that kind of summarizes the issue: Microsoft doesn't seem to realize it's not 1995 anymore. "Beginners" are no longer a big market, and people are more comfortable with "discovering" software interfaces, as proven by the success of web apps, Apple, etcetera.

CoryMathews 15y ago
Have you met people not in the tech world? Tons of people struggle with things as simple as sending emails, or adding music.
- wtallis 15y ago
  I know plenty of people like that. For the most part, they know how to right-click (unless they're using an Apple mouse).
SoftwareMaven 15y ago
Most "normals" I interact with are beginners every time they use the computer. They are not comfortable discovering anything. I can teach them something and be confident in them forgetting it by the next time I talk to them. Things like moving files around directories is black magic to them. Directories are black magic to them. The problem I see with this solution is two-fold: 1. The people who understand this stuff will be comfortable using context menus. 2. The people who don't understand this stuff will be just a stymied by the "move to" being in the ribbon versus being in a never-seen context menu. However, what I would imagine MS is hoping with this is that the people in category two will gradually slide up to category one (well, more like 1a) because these things are in their face all the time.
- sunchild 15y ago
  File systems and file browsers are just never going to be easy for users to understand. That's why Apple is slowly but surely hiding them entirely from "beginners"/"people who don't care to learn how to use their tools". Microsoft's solution is more akin to the way animal researchers teach apes to recognize arbitrary symbols. It's a subtle and pernicious form of vendor "lock in", because when you try to move those users away from their comfort zone in Outlook or Windows Explorer, they feel lost. Personally, I think Microsoft and "people who can't be bothered to learn their tools" deserve each other.

wtallis 15y ago

According to Microsoft's data, more than 85% of the command usage in Explorer is through keyboard shortcuts or context menus. Clearly, it isn't that hard to get used to using context menus and keyboard shortcuts. It seems to me that a lot of people here on HN are simply using this issue to talk about how much better they are at using a computer than the ordinary person, who is apparently quite inept. Unless there is convincing evidence that people that incompetent are still a significant fraction of the userbase, we should stop designing desktop software to accommodate people who are not able to master the use of an iPad.

brudgers 15y ago
>"Clearly, it isn't that hard to get used to using context menus and keyboard shortcuts." What this may show is that it is mainly experienced users who use Explorer. And based on my personal experience, I believe this to be the case - most people do not know what Explorer is for, let alone how to use it efficiently. The reason for using the context menu use in my case is that most options are available only from the context menu...e.g. "edit", "extract [from zip] all", etc. and it is only through many years of trial and error that I have developed any efficiency with the context menu - this is because the problem with context menu operations is that they require enough experience to recognize the context and remember what [hidden] commands will be revealed by a right-click. The advantage of the ribbon is that context menus are made visible when the context is entered, thus allowing less experienced users explore options more easily. Also, the issue with traditional context menus is that they are a mixture of fixed elements [cut, copy, paste, properties] and context specific items [extract all].
varunsrin 15y ago
This is a classic case of misinterpreting the data - 85% use it because the only way you can copy, without using a context menu or a keyboard shortcut is by holding down Alt and then clicking on the Edit menu.The point is, people use keyboard shortcuts & context menus because they have to today. This is the danger with reading too much into simple data - just because 85% of the people do X, it doesn't mean that X is good. Do you expect the data to show that people don't copy paste because its not intuitive? No, in most cases they 'have' to learn it, and figure it out by asking a friend, but they don't enjoy the learning process (and indirectly, resent the platform itself). Everyone who struggled with the concept of right clicking eventually learnt it - the problem is not that right clicking or context menus are impossible to learn. It's that they're not a natural way of interaction, and should be eliminated whenever possible. You shouldn't have to learn to use a menu to do what you want, especially when 80% of the time you just need 4 actions. The simplicity of modifiers (tap, double tap, swipe) is what makes touch platforms like iOS very intuitive. A direct, clickable button ensures that novice users can accomplish simple file management tasks by learning a single modifier (the click).

hernan7 15y ago

The "copy to" and "move to" buttons, seem to be some variation on the old "send to" command, which is currently available via both right-click and menu bar. (For those not familiar with Windows: if I select a file, the "send to" options are: compressed folder, create desktop shortcut, documents, fax, email, burn to DVD, network directory.) Personally, that's an command that I never use; not sure how popular it is with the Windows userbase in general.

aw3c2 15y ago
It is one thing I love to show "normal" people. They can use it to easily copy files to eg USB sticks or even select images to send by mail. These are tremendously useful for those people.
- hernan7 15y ago
  Fair enough. Usually, when I copy files to USB I have 2 windows open and drag from one to another. The "send to" email, however: I don't think you can use it with any web-based email, correct? Do people usually have Outlook set up on their machines these days?
watmough 15y ago
Yes, here's a place they really could have done something cool with the UI, and spiffed up a be-cobwebbed corner of Explorer. In XP, there's a folder that you can put folder and program shortcuts in, that will populate the send to menu. In fact, this essentially is my quicklaunch method when using XP. Just put a link to notepad2 in there, and you can view anything in ascii. Rinse and repeat. It's so useful in fact, that they might have been able to bring it into wider usage, and maintain continuity with older Windows, by adding a context menu such as 'Make me a send to place', which would add a shortcut to the clicked folder or application into the send to menu. To me on OS X, the Finder sidebar and Dock are the rough equivalent. 90% of my Finder work is selection and dragging to the sidebar, or Dock, the same thing I would use send to on Windows for.
icebraining 15y ago
>(For those not familiar with Windows: if I select a file, the "send to" options are: compressed folder, create desktop shortcut, documents, fax, email, burn to DVD, network directory.) There's one more: if you have a bluetooth adapter (or a laptop with embedded support), it shows a 'Send to Bluetooth device'. I find this very useful for sending files to my phone.

dendory 15y ago

"New computer users" ?! People who use Windows are, for the most part, not new computer users. More and more the new users go to a Mac, tablet or smartphone. The point of that article is that people already use hotkeys and context menus. So building a bigger menu and toolbar is crazy.

woobar 15y ago

'Move To' and 'Copy To' existed for a long time. I have them on Windows XP. They are not on a toolbar by default, by anyone can add them. Nobody knows about them for one reason - they are useless. Screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/5e5xN.jpg http://i.imgur.com/5e5xN.jpg

seabee 15y ago
they're on the toolbar in Vista and Win 7. In XP they're not on the toolbar but they're on the side bar that is shown by default. Edit: Vista/7 may not be completely true, but it's certainly that way on my untechnically-minded mother's laptop - probably the result of context (e.g. in a library of pictures) or a setting somewhere.

raster_blaster 15y ago

Move To and Copy To have existed since at least XP: http://i.imgur.com/NsPGD.png http://i.imgur.com/NsPGD.png But they had to be put there by the user. :)

perlgeek 15y ago

I don't have a Windows system at hand now, so I can't check it... but didn't "Copy To" exist as "Context Menu -> Send to" before?

dmethvin 15y ago
There is a "Send To Any Folder" utility that you can put in there, but it's not a standard feature.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

leon_ 15y ago

What makes you think that new computer users who can't remember "non intuitive" concepts like right clicking and context menus will know what cut/copy/paste on files does?

varunsrin 15y ago
Again, cut/copy/paste are technical terms - the intent a user is likely to form is, I have this word file here, and i need to put it onto this USB drive here. The large copy to button in the ribbon accomplishes that task nicely. Remember, its not that user's cant remember right clicking, its that they shouldn't have to. Why should you need two different types of clicks, and 2 sub menus to Send a file to a drive, when you can accomplish it with a single click and a single sub-menu (as is demonstrated in the ribbon) Making the initial learning curve simple will have implications on the overall feel & appeal of the operating system, but this is something that is difficult to quantify with simple software metrics.
- leon_ 15y ago
  > Making the initial learning curve simple will have implications on the overall feel & appeal of the operating system, but this is something that is difficult to quantify with simple software metrics. Ok, but the file system metaphor with its files and folders is unintuitive. New users get lost or just don't get that metaphor. You won't make anything easier for them by putting bigger buttons into the toolbar when they can't imagine for what those buttons might be used. Alone the metaphor of "copying" a file is so unintuitive. If my mother wants to take a look at the photos she took with her cam she sure won't think about "copying" them. My point is: MS is trying to fix the wrong problem. They should think about getting rid of end user facing file systems instead of bolting bigger and brighter buttons onto a horribly user unfriendly application like the explorer.

Kwpolska 15y ago

Move To and Copy To exist in XP.

iaskwhy 15y ago
But they are not shown by default on Vista or 7 (which I guess is where their data comes from).

azylman 15y ago

Came here to say this, only I don't work for Microsoft. He takes you guys' research that says most people use it from the context menu and uses that to say that it should continue to be that way. It's like, since when are companies not allowed to try to improve their UI? Just because most people use it there doesn't make it the best option.