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It seems that victim blaming is not something specific to just Boeing. Airbus blamed Qatar airways and the hot weather till similar issues emerged with planes o

It seems that victim blaming is not something specific to just Boeing. Airbus blamed Qatar airways and the hot weather till similar issues emerged with planes of Finn Air and Air France in colder climates. Whatever happened to the customer is always right? Guess it is easier to victim blame when you operate in essence a duopoly. Competition is critical to solve these issues in the long run.

lostcolony 5y ago
>> Whatever happened to the customer is always right? Enough people worked retail to know that's a lie. But yes, this is the sort of thing Airbus should have responded better to, even if it was without any real promise of making things right (i.e., "We are investigating fully as to what has happened here and will seek to make things right if we find this in any way weakens the structural stability of our planes, known the world over as some of the (insert whatever marketing speak)")
lotsofpulp 5y ago
> Whatever happened to the customer is always right? The customer not being right.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Bayart 5y ago
>Whatever happened to the customer is always right? That never made it to Europe to begin with.
- distances 5y ago
  Ans that's very good. Customers are wrong most if the time really, so it's generally better to have honest service providers that aren't bending to ridiculous customer demands.
- erect_mom 5y ago
  could you expand in this point?
- lorenzfx 5y ago
  It did, at least as a proverb. E.g. In German there is a saying "der Kunde ist König" (customer is king)
  - bserge 5y ago
    Judging by the quality of German customer care/support, that has got to be sarcasm :D
rob74 5y ago
If you apply that proverb to a customer who is trying to haggle with you over the price (or other contractual details) of their ordered planes, soon you will be paying them to take your jets...
smnrchrds 5y ago
Boeing also initially blamed pilots for 737 MAX crashes, until too many of them crashed, the regulators caught up and grounded the planes, and forced them to take responsibility. It seems like shifting the blame is the norm in the airline industry. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-11-16/are-boeing-planes-unsafe-pilots-blamed-for-corporate-errors-in-max-737-crash https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-11-16/are-boein...
- slownews45 5y ago
  I thought Boeing blamed it on a combination of poor maintenance practices by the relevant airlines, poor handling and response to inflight error messages and maintenance requests on previous flights that left the issue unaddressed, and then weaknesses on the pilot side during the accident flights? I personally think they went a bit overboard with the revised procedure memory items.
  - smnrchrds 5y ago
    I am no expert, but I remember the main culprit was that Boeing had insisted no further training is required for pilots to avoid some sort of expensive recertification. Weakness of pilots was the direct result of this. Pilots having experience with previous 737 planes were told in no uncertain terms that they can fly this new plane the exact same as the previous one and no further training or testing is required or even available. They did just that, but actions which would have saved the plane in previous generations ensured its crash in the MAX generation. And Boeing had the audacity of blaming the pilots when they inevitably died in crashes. > In vivid detail, the documentary pieces together what Boeing knew about the potential for disaster with the 737 Max and when the company knew it. Pasternak says in the film that in 2012, a “Boeing test pilot was flying the MAX in a flight simulator and trying to respond to an activation of MCAS, and that resulted in what he described as a catastrophic event. It showed that if that had been in real life, he [could] have lost the airplane. They realize from that moment on, even a Boeing test pilot may have trouble responding to MCAS.” > Yet internal communications explored in the film show that Boeing was determined to maintain the status quo: avoiding potential scrutiny by the Federal Aviation Administration that would add costs; keeping new simulator training for pilots to a minimum; and even requesting that MCAS be removed from pilot training manuals. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/video-clip-boeing-737-max-crashes-fatal-design-flaw-documentary/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/video-clip-boeing...
reaperducer 5y ago
Whatever happened to the customer is always right? Marshall Field, the man who coined that phrase, went out of business. His department store got eaten by Macy's.
- trimbo 5y ago
  Marshall Field died in 1906. Marshall Field's was an independent public company from 1930 until 1982.
  - reaperducer 5y ago
    OK, fine... Marshall Field's, the company founded by the man who coined that phrase and which used it as a slogan and marketing campaign for decades, went out of business. It eventually got eaten by Macy's. Happy?
erect_mom 5y ago
the customer is always right? you're old school. i like that.
tcskeptic 5y ago
Whatever happened to the customer is always right? Have you ever met a customer?
- nate_meurer 5y ago
  We have a lot of them where I live. They're always in the stores and restaurants trying to get stuff. I mostly shop online so I don't run into too many of them, which is nice.
flyinglizard 5y ago
It’s because of trust and money. Saying something is wrong is very expensive in this business, in outright money to fix (hundreds of millions - or more if this is fleet wide) and in public perception (“A350 is unsafe!”). Much easier to water down the issue and turn it to a mutual blame game.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>Guess it is easier to victim blame when you operate in essence a duopoly. The lesson the public repeatedly teaches to MBA types is that the narrative matters more than reality. It makes complete business sense to blame the customer.
- slownews45 5y ago
  The standard is a fair bit higher now in airplane safety than it was. The 787 issues make you realize this (shims / flatness stuff etc). Go back 50 years this wouldn't have gotten a second look in most cases (and yes, there were more fatalities).
callmeal 5y ago
>Whatever happened to the customer is always right? The full quote is: "In matters of taste, the customer is always right."
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jollybean 5y ago
"Whatever happened to the customer is always right?" These are serious issues with massive costs and liabilities. We don't resort to platitudes at that scale. 'Who is Right' should be as objective as we can feasibly determine and it may be complicated.
Rexxar 5y ago
Blaming climate is not blaming victim. When they blame climate they know they will have to fix this themselves and take this problem into account for new planes. They won't ask Qatar Airways to change climate of Qatar. Blaming climate was more a way to tell other customers "we thing you will not have this problem"

lostcolony 5y ago

>> Whatever happened to the customer is always right? Enough people worked retail to know that's a lie. But yes, this is the sort of thing Airbus should have responded better to, even if it was without any real promise of making things right (i.e., "We are investigating fully as to what has happened here and will seek to make things right if we find this in any way weakens the structural stability of our planes, known the world over as some of the (insert whatever marketing speak)")

lotsofpulp 5y ago

> Whatever happened to the customer is always right? The customer not being right.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Bayart 5y ago

>Whatever happened to the customer is always right? That never made it to Europe to begin with.

distances 5y ago
Ans that's very good. Customers are wrong most if the time really, so it's generally better to have honest service providers that aren't bending to ridiculous customer demands.
erect_mom 5y ago
could you expand in this point?
lorenzfx 5y ago
It did, at least as a proverb. E.g. In German there is a saying "der Kunde ist König" (customer is king)
- bserge 5y ago
  Judging by the quality of German customer care/support, that has got to be sarcasm :D

rob74 5y ago

If you apply that proverb to a customer who is trying to haggle with you over the price (or other contractual details) of their ordered planes, soon you will be paying them to take your jets...

smnrchrds 5y ago

Boeing also initially blamed pilots for 737 MAX crashes, until too many of them crashed, the regulators caught up and grounded the planes, and forced them to take responsibility. It seems like shifting the blame is the norm in the airline industry. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-11-16/are-boeing-planes-unsafe-pilots-blamed-for-corporate-errors-in-max-737-crash https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-11-16/are-boein...

slownews45 5y ago
I thought Boeing blamed it on a combination of poor maintenance practices by the relevant airlines, poor handling and response to inflight error messages and maintenance requests on previous flights that left the issue unaddressed, and then weaknesses on the pilot side during the accident flights? I personally think they went a bit overboard with the revised procedure memory items.
- smnrchrds 5y ago
  I am no expert, but I remember the main culprit was that Boeing had insisted no further training is required for pilots to avoid some sort of expensive recertification. Weakness of pilots was the direct result of this. Pilots having experience with previous 737 planes were told in no uncertain terms that they can fly this new plane the exact same as the previous one and no further training or testing is required or even available. They did just that, but actions which would have saved the plane in previous generations ensured its crash in the MAX generation. And Boeing had the audacity of blaming the pilots when they inevitably died in crashes. > In vivid detail, the documentary pieces together what Boeing knew about the potential for disaster with the 737 Max and when the company knew it. Pasternak says in the film that in 2012, a “Boeing test pilot was flying the MAX in a flight simulator and trying to respond to an activation of MCAS, and that resulted in what he described as a catastrophic event. It showed that if that had been in real life, he [could] have lost the airplane. They realize from that moment on, even a Boeing test pilot may have trouble responding to MCAS.” > Yet internal communications explored in the film show that Boeing was determined to maintain the status quo: avoiding potential scrutiny by the Federal Aviation Administration that would add costs; keeping new simulator training for pilots to a minimum; and even requesting that MCAS be removed from pilot training manuals. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/video-clip-boeing-737-max-crashes-fatal-design-flaw-documentary/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/video-clip-boeing...

reaperducer 5y ago

Whatever happened to the customer is always right? Marshall Field, the man who coined that phrase, went out of business. His department store got eaten by Macy's.

trimbo 5y ago
Marshall Field died in 1906. Marshall Field's was an independent public company from 1930 until 1982.
- reaperducer 5y ago
  OK, fine... Marshall Field's, the company founded by the man who coined that phrase and which used it as a slogan and marketing campaign for decades, went out of business. It eventually got eaten by Macy's. Happy?

erect_mom 5y ago

the customer is always right? you're old school. i like that.

tcskeptic 5y ago

Whatever happened to the customer is always right? Have you ever met a customer?

nate_meurer 5y ago
We have a lot of them where I live. They're always in the stores and restaurants trying to get stuff. I mostly shop online so I don't run into too many of them, which is nice.

flyinglizard 5y ago

It’s because of trust and money. Saying something is wrong is very expensive in this business, in outright money to fix (hundreds of millions - or more if this is fleet wide) and in public perception (“A350 is unsafe!”). Much easier to water down the issue and turn it to a mutual blame game.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

>Guess it is easier to victim blame when you operate in essence a duopoly. The lesson the public repeatedly teaches to MBA types is that the narrative matters more than reality. It makes complete business sense to blame the customer.

slownews45 5y ago
The standard is a fair bit higher now in airplane safety than it was. The 787 issues make you realize this (shims / flatness stuff etc). Go back 50 years this wouldn't have gotten a second look in most cases (and yes, there were more fatalities).

callmeal 5y ago

>Whatever happened to the customer is always right? The full quote is: "In matters of taste, the customer is always right."

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jollybean 5y ago

"Whatever happened to the customer is always right?" These are serious issues with massive costs and liabilities. We don't resort to platitudes at that scale. 'Who is Right' should be as objective as we can feasibly determine and it may be complicated.

Rexxar 5y ago

Blaming climate is not blaming victim. When they blame climate they know they will have to fix this themselves and take this problem into account for new planes. They won't ask Qatar Airways to change climate of Qatar. Blaming climate was more a way to tell other customers "we thing you will not have this problem"