5 ms·

Shortage of Adult Workers Makes Teens Employable Again

27 points by Bostonian 5y ago

jasonsamoa 5y ago
Not being able to find a job without experience is devastating to morale and self-confidence. Never understood the arguments for less jobs.
aiscapehumanity 5y ago
Would just be nice to end the cycle with automation
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  Yes, then everyone can be less employable. If you redistribute the resulting capital returns, that could be nice, sure. Stick to neoliberal capitalism and it's dystopian, though.
  - DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
    What alternative do you propose?
    - alexarnesen 5y ago
      The way forward might be a synthesis of competing systems / approaches. For instance we could use neoliberal capitalism as a starting point, and (as a society) devote serious resources to addressing harmful effects caused by things like rent seeking and regulatory capture.
    - AnonMessiah 5y ago
      The working class seizing the means of production and the destruction of wage labor.
    - hypertele-Xii 5y ago
      Socialism. Everybody matters. You don't have to go all the way to communism, just ensure everyone has food, healthcare, a home, heat, water, electricity and Internet access. It's great.
- fundad 5y ago
  Yes the expensive but not-ready automation tech that needs 0 maintenance is going to take 2100 by storm!
confidantlake 5y ago
There is also a shortage of supermodels willing to marry me, a shortage of 7 foot tall guys who can shoot 3 pointers, and a shortage of new cars sold for $100 to go along with this labor shortage. Seriously though there is no labor shortage, raise the wages and any "shortage" will correct itself.
- fundad 5y ago
  Can you imagine writing: "pandemic-era lifestyle adjustments that lowered cost of living for many people"? Is that a fun way of saying workers are getting pushed out of areas where workers are needed? Yeah that's a preexisting crisis. What part of cost of living lowered? Food and building materials were already tariffed and pandemic made doing anything more expensive so prices soared even more.
hulitu 5y ago
So child labour in other countries is a no go but in US is ok ? Yes 16-17 is at limit but ...
- joshstrange 5y ago
  16-17 isn't the youngest, I had a job at 14 and other states might go even lower.
  - cardiffspaceman 5y ago
    I remember that LA County (California) gave school students a pamphlet that had the conditions for minors to get a job in that jurisdiction. 16-year-olds could definitely get jobs after going through a few hoops. 14-year-olds had more hoops, including that it had to be a family business, such as Junior filling in at Father's jewelry store after school. I think it was possible for a supervised 12-year-old to legally work for a wage lower than minimum, but again it had to be a family business.
    - mbg721 5y ago
      Ohio is similar; family businesses and farm work have special exemptions, but otherwise 16 is the norm.
mcaravey 5y ago
We’ve seen a lot of issues with hiring at the bakery I run. Minimum wage is already very high in Oregon at $14 (will likely increase next year). We pay more than that for our entry-level jobs, buts we’ve found it’s very hard to compete with the big companies. Our delivery driver position has to compete with $20/ hour starting wage + full benefits + $3000 signing bonus offered by Amazon contractors for zero experience. Yes, we’ve had to increase our wages, but people still don’t want to work. We’ve had people come in thinking that we were like the baking shows you see on Netflix, just making fun cute things all day. They get scared of the work. A lot of younger applicants have a distinct air of entitlement, that their work is so incredibly valuable, even though they’ve never had working experience before. I can’t (literally can’t) pay these people huge wages. They don’t provide enough value, and no customer is willing to pay the associate price increases to the product to compensate the wage increase. If everyone agreed that paying $10 on a croissant was acceptable, then sure we could pay more, but it’s not purely the decision of the business owners. I’m aware that we could just increase prices, pay better wages, etc. But there’s a very real risk to the business when making a large price change. We sell to a lot of other businesses, and they are sensitive to price changes. So while I’d love to hire and pay people extremely well, we can’t simply decide to pay more and have it work. All that said, about half our employees are quite young (not teens though). They are usually the most energetic and willing to learn, but they are also the most unreliable (ghost, quit with no notice, untruthful about time off, etc). Managing people is way harder than it looks…
- xxpor 5y ago
  So in other words then, you don't have a viable business...
  - mcaravey 5y ago
    Oh, don't get me wrong, it's a viable business. The issue I am bringing up is the disconnect between white-collar workers and blue-collar workers. Blue collar work is by definition manual labor. Low skill labor goes in, product comes out. You have to constantly provide labor in order to create value. Software is very different because once it has been written it continues to provide value without constant input (yes, I'm ignoring maintenance and such). In theory the software can provide exponential amounts of value compared to the cost of labor. In that case sure, increasing the wages won't have a meaningful impact on the company income. With blue collar work, and our in particular, there is a direct correlation between the cost of the labor and the profit from the product. The kinds of people we might employ have 1) zero experience, 2) troubled past that wouldn't pass a background check, 3) little to no education (many never finished high school), or any other multitude of reasons. These are vastly different kinds of people than what you might find in a white collar job. In a business based on blue collar work, you really only have two choices: increase sales prices in order to pay employees more and hope the market will bear it. If not, you can pay employees market rates and keep the doors open. We have plans to start offering health insurance and benefits to all our employees, in addition to raising wages, so there's that to consider...
bsder 5y ago
My first reaction to that headline was "Employing teenagers in the sex trade isn't something people should be trumpeting." The internet has changed my expectations of news reporting.
zumu 5y ago
I'm kind of shocked by the negative comments here. Getting work experience as a teen is great. It teaches you discipline, gives you some independence from your parents and a taste of the working life that can inform future career decisions.

27 points by Bostonian 5y ago

Not being able to find a job without experience is devastating to morale and self-confidence. Never understood the arguments for less jobs.

aiscapehumanity 5y ago

Would just be nice to end the cycle with automation

dragonwriter 5y ago
Yes, then everyone can be less employable. If you redistribute the resulting capital returns, that could be nice, sure. Stick to neoliberal capitalism and it's dystopian, though.
- DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
  What alternative do you propose?
  - alexarnesen 5y ago
    The way forward might be a synthesis of competing systems / approaches. For instance we could use neoliberal capitalism as a starting point, and (as a society) devote serious resources to addressing harmful effects caused by things like rent seeking and regulatory capture.
  - AnonMessiah 5y ago
    The working class seizing the means of production and the destruction of wage labor.
  - hypertele-Xii 5y ago
    Socialism. Everybody matters. You don't have to go all the way to communism, just ensure everyone has food, healthcare, a home, heat, water, electricity and Internet access. It's great.
fundad 5y ago
Yes the expensive but not-ready automation tech that needs 0 maintenance is going to take 2100 by storm!

confidantlake 5y ago

There is also a shortage of supermodels willing to marry me, a shortage of 7 foot tall guys who can shoot 3 pointers, and a shortage of new cars sold for $100 to go along with this labor shortage. Seriously though there is no labor shortage, raise the wages and any "shortage" will correct itself.

fundad 5y ago
Can you imagine writing: "pandemic-era lifestyle adjustments that lowered cost of living for many people"? Is that a fun way of saying workers are getting pushed out of areas where workers are needed? Yeah that's a preexisting crisis. What part of cost of living lowered? Food and building materials were already tariffed and pandemic made doing anything more expensive so prices soared even more.

hulitu 5y ago

So child labour in other countries is a no go but in US is ok ? Yes 16-17 is at limit but ...

joshstrange 5y ago
16-17 isn't the youngest, I had a job at 14 and other states might go even lower.
- cardiffspaceman 5y ago
  I remember that LA County (California) gave school students a pamphlet that had the conditions for minors to get a job in that jurisdiction. 16-year-olds could definitely get jobs after going through a few hoops. 14-year-olds had more hoops, including that it had to be a family business, such as Junior filling in at Father's jewelry store after school. I think it was possible for a supervised 12-year-old to legally work for a wage lower than minimum, but again it had to be a family business.
  - mbg721 5y ago
    Ohio is similar; family businesses and farm work have special exemptions, but otherwise 16 is the norm.

mcaravey 5y ago

We’ve seen a lot of issues with hiring at the bakery I run. Minimum wage is already very high in Oregon at $14 (will likely increase next year). We pay more than that for our entry-level jobs, buts we’ve found it’s very hard to compete with the big companies. Our delivery driver position has to compete with $20/ hour starting wage + full benefits + $3000 signing bonus offered by Amazon contractors for zero experience. Yes, we’ve had to increase our wages, but people still don’t want to work. We’ve had people come in thinking that we were like the baking shows you see on Netflix, just making fun cute things all day. They get scared of the work. A lot of younger applicants have a distinct air of entitlement, that their work is so incredibly valuable, even though they’ve never had working experience before. I can’t (literally can’t) pay these people huge wages. They don’t provide enough value, and no customer is willing to pay the associate price increases to the product to compensate the wage increase. If everyone agreed that paying $10 on a croissant was acceptable, then sure we could pay more, but it’s not purely the decision of the business owners. I’m aware that we could just increase prices, pay better wages, etc. But there’s a very real risk to the business when making a large price change. We sell to a lot of other businesses, and they are sensitive to price changes. So while I’d love to hire and pay people extremely well, we can’t simply decide to pay more and have it work. All that said, about half our employees are quite young (not teens though). They are usually the most energetic and willing to learn, but they are also the most unreliable (ghost, quit with no notice, untruthful about time off, etc). Managing people is way harder than it looks…

xxpor 5y ago
So in other words then, you don't have a viable business...
- mcaravey 5y ago
  Oh, don't get me wrong, it's a viable business. The issue I am bringing up is the disconnect between white-collar workers and blue-collar workers. Blue collar work is by definition manual labor. Low skill labor goes in, product comes out. You have to constantly provide labor in order to create value. Software is very different because once it has been written it continues to provide value without constant input (yes, I'm ignoring maintenance and such). In theory the software can provide exponential amounts of value compared to the cost of labor. In that case sure, increasing the wages won't have a meaningful impact on the company income. With blue collar work, and our in particular, there is a direct correlation between the cost of the labor and the profit from the product. The kinds of people we might employ have 1) zero experience, 2) troubled past that wouldn't pass a background check, 3) little to no education (many never finished high school), or any other multitude of reasons. These are vastly different kinds of people than what you might find in a white collar job. In a business based on blue collar work, you really only have two choices: increase sales prices in order to pay employees more and hope the market will bear it. If not, you can pay employees market rates and keep the doors open. We have plans to start offering health insurance and benefits to all our employees, in addition to raising wages, so there's that to consider...

bsder 5y ago

My first reaction to that headline was "Employing teenagers in the sex trade isn't something people should be trumpeting." The internet has changed my expectations of news reporting.

zumu 5y ago

I'm kind of shocked by the negative comments here. Getting work experience as a teen is great. It teaches you discipline, gives you some independence from your parents and a taste of the working life that can inform future career decisions.