9 ms·

> Trucks, in particular, are often not even equipped with side mirrors in the first place. Maybe mandating side mirrors (or rather enforcing this mandate - I c

by rob74 5y ago

> Trucks, in particular, are often not even equipped with side mirrors in the first place. Maybe mandating side mirrors (or rather enforcing this mandate - I can't quite believe that side mirrors are optional for roadworthiness, even in India) would be a better point to start with, rather than outlawing the phrase "Horn OK Please"?

treeman79 5y ago
In many places no cars have mirrors. They get smashed off by other cars promptly. Driving is more akin to number cars
- somedude895 5y ago
  I spent a month in Cuba in 2008 and though I didn't see any signs telling people to honk when overtaking, everyone was doing it on the highway. A lot of cars in Cuba are in terrible shape, but it might also have to do with the fact that the Autopista 1 is in very bad condition. You really have to focus on avoiding the massive potholes, so you have less time to pay attention to your surroundings. Honking helps the driver in front to make sure to swerve away from you while you're overtaking on the next pothole.
iso1631 5y ago
"Indian drivers rarely use their side mirrors" Doesn't matter if the mirrors are there or not if culturally people don't use them.
- alex_smart 5y ago
  Yup, the rough heuristic that most drivers follow in India is: if I see empty road ahead of me, I am going in.
- Etheryte 5y ago
  I experienced confusion about this when I travelled to Indonesia some years ago, but a local taxi driver made it easy to understand: "What's in front of you is your responsibility." It's an unwritten local driving rule and once you know it, the local traffic is considerably easier to grok. No one looks behind them because everyone's agreed that they only worry about things in front of them. If you want to pass a car in front of you then it's up to you to make it work. Likewise with driving a car in the sea of scooters that Indonesian traffic oftentimes is. Worry about the scooters in front of you, the ones behind you and on your sides will do their best to look out for themselves and don't expect much from you.
  - pmontra 5y ago
    I look at the rear mirror all the time, especially before stopping. Is that car behind me too fast and will crash into me? A taxi decided that didn't like me stopping at a pedestrian crossing a few nights ago and overtook me. I honked and both the people crossing the street and the taxi stopped. I think the danger trumped the rule of never honking at night in a city.
    - iso1631 5y ago
      Was this in Jakarta or a smaller city?
      - pmontra 5y ago
        It was in Milan, Italy. Horns are uncommon but there are some random crazy drivers in hurry to get somewhere :-)
  - rhn_mk1 5y ago
    How do people back out into a street there?
    - skhr0680 5y ago
      My guess is that they back into parking spots to avoid that scenario
  - thrwyoilarticle 5y ago
    Grokked or not, there are more road fatalities.
    - Etheryte 5y ago
      More or less is relative. In 2019, Indonesia had 15.3 road deaths per 100.000 inhabitants per year [0]. For context, Norway had 2.0, United States had 12.4, and Liberia (the worst on the list) had 35.9, to pick a few random data points. While I definitely agree that the traffic in Indonesia is chaotic and that can lead to more accidents, that doesn't tell the whole story. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...
dluga93 5y ago
I guess the hearing impaired can't drive in India.
- lvass 5y ago
  And you can't drive too long before becoming hearing impaired.
alex_smart 5y ago
Indian driving is like ant colony, but it's humans.
- masklinn 5y ago
  Way my colleagues told me, circulation is such a mess there’s no way you can check all around you (plus what’s that going to change, defensive driving in bumper-to-bumper traffic means complete paralysis) so the only things you look at are in front, and the people following have to be ready. Needless to say I opted out of driving, crossing roads is as far as I took the challenge of directly interacting with indian circulation.
  - alex_smart 5y ago
    >Way my colleagues told me, circulation is such a mess there’s no way you can check all around you It's not so much that you can't, but that most people don't and with no driver education and no enforcement of traffic rules, you are stuck in a shitty nash equilibrium. I learnt driving in Canada, and I have tried to continue the same driving habits in India - because that is the only way I feel safe while driving. I simply can not change lanes without checking the rear-view mirrors and a shoulder-check because I am utterly terrified of what could happen if I don't. At the same time, I am also completely aware about how 99.9% of drivers on the road are operating. So, I have to be cautious that any car could try to nose their way into the road in front of me even when I have right-of-way because that's just how things work here. It is stressful and horrible.
    - oblio 5y ago
      It's probably going to change as they get more cars, more highways and better driver educations. It's probably going to take decades.
      - alex_smart 5y ago
        No change is automatic. Why will it change just because there are more cars and more highways? And where is the push for better driver education? There is none.
rk06 5y ago
Side mirrors are used by vehicle in front and horns by vehicle behind. they are not the same. Moreover, large trucks and busses have a large blindspot, and can't check behind them. So, vehicles behind them, can only honk to make them aware that they are there.
- elzbardico 5y ago
  If everybody follow simple traffic rules there's absolutely no need for the vehicle behind a truck to have the need to make the truck aware they are there. 1. Vehicle behind must keep distance, no tailgating. 2. Vehicle ahead should not change lanes before a) Making sure the marking on the road says it is permitted. b) Signaling the maneuver with directional lights. c) Checking the side mirror before actually starting the maneuver. That's basically how it works in the rest of the world. Trucks have large blind spots everywhere else, but by signalling their maneuvers in advance and with the other drivers following some simple rules, lots of places in the world (including a lot of poor countries in Latin America) get by with reserving the use of honks only for true urgent situations. edit: line-breaks
  - junoper 5y ago
    I agree and people are exeggerating the usage of horns more than it actually is. > there's absolutely no need But one use of horn that I found useful in India was to overtake on 2-lane hilly road. Now theoretically you should be able to see, may be hundred metres, ahead of you before you start the overtake or if you are not too keen to reach your destination, not overtake at all till you reach straight road with longer view. In practice though, trucks are slow moving and roads sometimes don't provide clear view of the road with twists and turns so it helps if you let the truck ahead of you know of your presence. Then truck dirver signals you with his hand when it is safe to overtake with his longer FOV. Apart from that, truck driver knowing of your presence can help him slow down his vehicle in case oncoming vehicle is cutting it too close for you to overtake the truck. Is there a better way of doing this? Probably, by just avoiding any risky overtake by road markings etc. but as I said above, that could mean following the truck for few hours in the worst case. And does that mean you honk everytime you are behind a truck? Not at all.
gameswithgo 5y ago
first have to solve the problem of efficient and effective regulation of anything in a country of a billion people that doesn’t currently do that
Pxtl 5y ago
The lack of side mirrors is because of hyper-narrow roads and gateways and terrifying traffic. Last time I was in India our driver kept his side mirrors folded down... and the man was capable of manoeuvring his car with micrometer-level accuracy. I can think of dozens of times I cringed expecting a scrape but of course he knew his car perfectly. There are many situations where those mirrors would have been lost if they'd been open. Manoeuvring a larger truck would require amazing driving skills, and the width of that truck would make adding side mirrors pointless - you'd lose them the first day out.

by rob74 5y ago

treeman79 5y ago

In many places no cars have mirrors. They get smashed off by other cars promptly. Driving is more akin to number cars

somedude895 5y ago
I spent a month in Cuba in 2008 and though I didn't see any signs telling people to honk when overtaking, everyone was doing it on the highway. A lot of cars in Cuba are in terrible shape, but it might also have to do with the fact that the Autopista 1 is in very bad condition. You really have to focus on avoiding the massive potholes, so you have less time to pay attention to your surroundings. Honking helps the driver in front to make sure to swerve away from you while you're overtaking on the next pothole.

iso1631 5y ago

"Indian drivers rarely use their side mirrors" Doesn't matter if the mirrors are there or not if culturally people don't use them.

alex_smart 5y ago
Yup, the rough heuristic that most drivers follow in India is: if I see empty road ahead of me, I am going in.
Etheryte 5y ago
I experienced confusion about this when I travelled to Indonesia some years ago, but a local taxi driver made it easy to understand: "What's in front of you is your responsibility." It's an unwritten local driving rule and once you know it, the local traffic is considerably easier to grok. No one looks behind them because everyone's agreed that they only worry about things in front of them. If you want to pass a car in front of you then it's up to you to make it work. Likewise with driving a car in the sea of scooters that Indonesian traffic oftentimes is. Worry about the scooters in front of you, the ones behind you and on your sides will do their best to look out for themselves and don't expect much from you.
- pmontra 5y ago
  I look at the rear mirror all the time, especially before stopping. Is that car behind me too fast and will crash into me? A taxi decided that didn't like me stopping at a pedestrian crossing a few nights ago and overtook me. I honked and both the people crossing the street and the taxi stopped. I think the danger trumped the rule of never honking at night in a city.
  - iso1631 5y ago
    Was this in Jakarta or a smaller city?
    - pmontra 5y ago
      It was in Milan, Italy. Horns are uncommon but there are some random crazy drivers in hurry to get somewhere :-)
- rhn_mk1 5y ago
  How do people back out into a street there?
  - skhr0680 5y ago
    My guess is that they back into parking spots to avoid that scenario
- thrwyoilarticle 5y ago
  Grokked or not, there are more road fatalities.
  - Etheryte 5y ago
    More or less is relative. In 2019, Indonesia had 15.3 road deaths per 100.000 inhabitants per year [0]. For context, Norway had 2.0, United States had 12.4, and Liberia (the worst on the list) had 35.9, to pick a few random data points. While I definitely agree that the traffic in Indonesia is chaotic and that can lead to more accidents, that doesn't tell the whole story. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...

dluga93 5y ago

I guess the hearing impaired can't drive in India.

lvass 5y ago
And you can't drive too long before becoming hearing impaired.

alex_smart 5y ago

Indian driving is like ant colony, but it's humans.

masklinn 5y ago
Way my colleagues told me, circulation is such a mess there’s no way you can check all around you (plus what’s that going to change, defensive driving in bumper-to-bumper traffic means complete paralysis) so the only things you look at are in front, and the people following have to be ready. Needless to say I opted out of driving, crossing roads is as far as I took the challenge of directly interacting with indian circulation.
- alex_smart 5y ago
  >Way my colleagues told me, circulation is such a mess there’s no way you can check all around you It's not so much that you can't, but that most people don't and with no driver education and no enforcement of traffic rules, you are stuck in a shitty nash equilibrium. I learnt driving in Canada, and I have tried to continue the same driving habits in India - because that is the only way I feel safe while driving. I simply can not change lanes without checking the rear-view mirrors and a shoulder-check because I am utterly terrified of what could happen if I don't. At the same time, I am also completely aware about how 99.9% of drivers on the road are operating. So, I have to be cautious that any car could try to nose their way into the road in front of me even when I have right-of-way because that's just how things work here. It is stressful and horrible.
  - oblio 5y ago
    It's probably going to change as they get more cars, more highways and better driver educations. It's probably going to take decades.
    - alex_smart 5y ago
      No change is automatic. Why will it change just because there are more cars and more highways? And where is the push for better driver education? There is none.

rk06 5y ago

Side mirrors are used by vehicle in front and horns by vehicle behind. they are not the same. Moreover, large trucks and busses have a large blindspot, and can't check behind them. So, vehicles behind them, can only honk to make them aware that they are there.

elzbardico 5y ago
If everybody follow simple traffic rules there's absolutely no need for the vehicle behind a truck to have the need to make the truck aware they are there. 1. Vehicle behind must keep distance, no tailgating. 2. Vehicle ahead should not change lanes before a) Making sure the marking on the road says it is permitted. b) Signaling the maneuver with directional lights. c) Checking the side mirror before actually starting the maneuver. That's basically how it works in the rest of the world. Trucks have large blind spots everywhere else, but by signalling their maneuvers in advance and with the other drivers following some simple rules, lots of places in the world (including a lot of poor countries in Latin America) get by with reserving the use of honks only for true urgent situations. edit: line-breaks
- junoper 5y ago
  I agree and people are exeggerating the usage of horns more than it actually is. > there's absolutely no need But one use of horn that I found useful in India was to overtake on 2-lane hilly road. Now theoretically you should be able to see, may be hundred metres, ahead of you before you start the overtake or if you are not too keen to reach your destination, not overtake at all till you reach straight road with longer view. In practice though, trucks are slow moving and roads sometimes don't provide clear view of the road with twists and turns so it helps if you let the truck ahead of you know of your presence. Then truck dirver signals you with his hand when it is safe to overtake with his longer FOV. Apart from that, truck driver knowing of your presence can help him slow down his vehicle in case oncoming vehicle is cutting it too close for you to overtake the truck. Is there a better way of doing this? Probably, by just avoiding any risky overtake by road markings etc. but as I said above, that could mean following the truck for few hours in the worst case. And does that mean you honk everytime you are behind a truck? Not at all.

gameswithgo 5y ago

first have to solve the problem of efficient and effective regulation of anything in a country of a billion people that doesn’t currently do that

Pxtl 5y ago

The lack of side mirrors is because of hyper-narrow roads and gateways and terrifying traffic. Last time I was in India our driver kept his side mirrors folded down... and the man was capable of manoeuvring his car with micrometer-level accuracy. I can think of dozens of times I cringed expecting a scrape but of course he knew his car perfectly. There are many situations where those mirrors would have been lost if they'd been open. Manoeuvring a larger truck would require amazing driving skills, and the width of that truck would make adding side mirrors pointless - you'd lose them the first day out.