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You are right in criticizing me for not being proportionate enough. I did not take the time to make my post more nuanced. So let me clarify. I do not believe t

You are right in criticizing me for not being proportionate enough. I did not take the time to make my post more nuanced. So let me clarify. I do not believe that the HK protests were mainly due to US sponsorship (even if they were a contributing factor). My point was rather that it's unreasonable to expect a country to not respond to foreign sponsorship with security measures. I do not believe that the HK protests were mainly undemocratic. However, the undemocratic and violent faction had effectively taken over, while the actually democratic faction failed in reigning this former faction in, so in my opinion trying to rhetorically separate them is a waste of time. I do not agree with you that the CCP's popularity in the mainland is fake. There are multiple studies that show that their popularity is real.[1][2] The difference is between mainlanders and Hong Kongers is that many Hong Kongers don't have first-hand experience with how the mainland is governed and how the mainland has improved, and that the media regularly injects disinformation. Mainlanders know about Hong Kong, but they disagree. You can blame it on propaganda, but even mainlanders who have moved outside the mainland and who have been exposed to western media, don't tend to change their stance on Hong Kong. [1] https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7.6.2020.pdf https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/05/did-pandemic-shake-chinese-citizens-trust-their-government/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/05/did-pande... What bugs me most is that the criminals are getting away with a good reputation in the west, who wholly paints them as "pro-democracy freedom fighters". It also bugs me that a lot (not sure how many, but a lot) of protesters don't know what sort of freedom they want. Check the Keybros interview I linked: why could none of the 100 protesters articulate what concrete freedoms they are missing? Why are the protesters mostly younger people who have never lived under British colonial times? There is something deeply disingenuous among a part of the protester movement. I hope they can recognize that economic trouble (e.g. cage houses) is one of the reasons, and I hope that Hong Kong will do something about that. If these protesters think that life in Britain is really better, then they should experience it firsthand and come to their own conclusion on whether their protest was right or not. What I hope for is more reconciliation between mainland and Hong Kong. I even hope that Hong Kong will get more democracy, namely universal suffrage and a strong Common Law-based rule of law environment. However I want Hong Kongers to be honest about things, and I want more democracy/rule of law at the same time as a Hong Kong that is proud of being part of China, and at the same time where criminals aren't swept under a rug for political reasons. One Country Two Systems, not Two Country Two Systems.

hker 5y ago
Lots of your objection stems from breaking Hong Kong laws (rule of law...being part of China, criminals aren't swept under a rug...). Worth noting that there is a huge difference between “Rule of Law” and “Rule by Law”: China only has “Rule by Law”, not “Rule of Law” [1][2], because Rule of Law requires Judiciary Independence (hence “having Rule of Law” is incompatible with “being part of China”, as CCP stated explicitly [3]). To make this concrete, let’s use the recent event of Peng Shuai’s allegation as an example. The accused ex-Premier Zhang Gaoli could be guilty or not, but under Rule of Law—where no one is above law, not even the party or prominent party members—he must go through the same process as other accused. This is the only way to show that criminals aren't swept under a rug for political reasons (such as because Zhang Gaoli was close to Xi Jinping during their time in Shenzhen). Putting the party or prominent party member above law (or behind some opaque process) is NOT Rule of Law. And a huge disagreement causing the Hong Kong protest is due to deteriorating Rule of Law [4], due to worsening democracy in Hong Kong (the legislative council does not represent the majority opinion). This had been voiced out by a judge of Court of Final Appeal [5] and some prominent lawyer [6]. [1]: https://archive.md/WjWWF https://archive.md/WjWWF [2]: https://www.swp-berlin.org/10.18449/2021C28/ https://www.swp-berlin.org/10.18449/2021C28/ [3]: https://www.thestandnews.com/china/習近平-法治要從國情出發-決不能走西方-司法獨立-路 https://www.thestandnews.com/china/習近平-法治要從國情出發-決不能走西方-司法獨立-... [4]: https://www.thestandnews.com/politics/8-4-將軍澳遊行-參加者高太-香港已由法治變人治-成立獨立調查委員會最乃重要訴求 https://www.thestandnews.com/politics/8-4-將軍澳遊行-參加者高太-香港已由法治... [5]: https://www.thestandnews.com/politics/包致金-香港只享有-類法治-應改變沒有民主也有法治的想法 https://www.thestandnews.com/politics/包致金-香港只享有-類法治-應改變沒有民主也... [6]: https://www.thestandnews.com/politics/石永泰-亂談法治-會為政權錯誤鍍金 https://www.thestandnews.com/politics/石永泰-亂談法治-會為政權錯誤鍍金 Indeed, the 2021 Report to Congress by U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission points out (p. 458 of [7]): Judiciary Independent in Name Only Hong Kong’s historically independent judiciary is no longer reliably impartial on cases related to matters the Chinese government deems sensitive, since the National Security Law has cemented Beijing’s right to determine which judges hear national security cases in which jurisdiction, almost guaranteeing outcomes the CCP prefers. [7]: https://www.uscc.gov/sites/default/files/2021-11/2021_Annual_Report_to_Congress.pdf https://www.uscc.gov/sites/default/files/2021-11/2021_Annual... Hence, if you wish for Judiciary Independence and Rule of Law of Hong Kong, you would object the NSL, like the protestors did correctly. This is the reason that comparing the protestors to Capitol rioters, as China did [8], is disingenuous [9]. [8]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-07/communist-party-paper-casts-u-s-capital-chaos-as-karma https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-07/communist... [9]: https://qz.com/1953776/dont-compare-trumps-insurrection-with-hong-kongs-legislature-storming/ https://qz.com/1953776/dont-compare-trumps-insurrection-with... Given the difficulty of maintaining Rule of Law under One Country Two Systems (as Tibet and Hong Kong showed), your hope of Rule of Law would object One Country Two Systems. Also, before demonizing Two Country Two Systems, have you experienced it firsthand and come to your own conclusion? Do you know what you are disagreeing with? Given the disinformation campaign of CCP [10], that is, CCP regularly injects disinformation into media (or in this case, deliberately confusing “Rule of Law” with “Rule by Law” in a newspeak way [1][2]), it is hard for Mainlanders to know about Hong Kong and have an informed opinion, even when they moved outside China. [10]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20740179 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20740179

hker 5y ago

Lots of your objection stems from breaking Hong Kong laws (rule of law...being part of China, criminals aren't swept under a rug...). Worth noting that there is a huge difference between “Rule of Law” and “Rule by Law”: China only has “Rule by Law”, not “Rule of Law” [1][2], because Rule of Law requires Judiciary Independence (hence “having Rule of Law” is incompatible with “being part of China”, as CCP stated explicitly [3]). To make this concrete, let’s use the recent event of Peng Shuai’s allegation as an example. The accused ex-Premier Zhang Gaoli could be guilty or not, but under Rule of Law—where no one is above law, not even the party or prominent party members—he must go through the same process as other accused. This is the only way to show that criminals aren't swept under a rug for political reasons (such as because Zhang Gaoli was close to Xi Jinping during their time in Shenzhen). Putting the party or prominent party member above law (or behind some opaque process) is NOT Rule of Law. And a huge disagreement causing the Hong Kong protest is due to deteriorating Rule of Law [4], due to worsening democracy in Hong Kong (the legislative council does not represent the majority opinion). This had been voiced out by a judge of Court of Final Appeal [5] and some prominent lawyer [6]. [1]: https://archive.md/WjWWF https://archive.md/WjWWF [2]: https://www.swp-berlin.org/10.18449/2021C28/ https://www.swp-berlin.org/10.18449/2021C28/ [3]: https://www.thestandnews.com/china/習近平-法治要從國情出發-決不能走西方-司法獨立-路 https://www.thestandnews.com/china/習近平-法治要從國情出發-決不能走西方-司法獨立-... [4]: https://www.thestandnews.com/politics/8-4-將軍澳遊行-參加者高太-香港已由法治變人治-成立獨立調查委員會最乃重要訴求 https://www.thestandnews.com/politics/8-4-將軍澳遊行-參加者高太-香港已由法治... [5]: https://www.thestandnews.com/politics/包致金-香港只享有-類法治-應改變沒有民主也有法治的想法 https://www.thestandnews.com/politics/包致金-香港只享有-類法治-應改變沒有民主也... [6]: https://www.thestandnews.com/politics/石永泰-亂談法治-會為政權錯誤鍍金 https://www.thestandnews.com/politics/石永泰-亂談法治-會為政權錯誤鍍金 Indeed, the 2021 Report to Congress by U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission points out (p. 458 of [7]): Judiciary Independent in Name Only Hong Kong’s historically independent judiciary is no longer reliably impartial on cases related to matters the Chinese government deems sensitive, since the National Security Law has cemented Beijing’s right to determine which judges hear national security cases in which jurisdiction, almost guaranteeing outcomes the CCP prefers. [7]: https://www.uscc.gov/sites/default/files/2021-11/2021_Annual_Report_to_Congress.pdf https://www.uscc.gov/sites/default/files/2021-11/2021_Annual... Hence, if you wish for Judiciary Independence and Rule of Law of Hong Kong, you would object the NSL, like the protestors did correctly. This is the reason that comparing the protestors to Capitol rioters, as China did [8], is disingenuous [9]. [8]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-07/communist-party-paper-casts-u-s-capital-chaos-as-karma https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-07/communist... [9]: https://qz.com/1953776/dont-compare-trumps-insurrection-with-hong-kongs-legislature-storming/ https://qz.com/1953776/dont-compare-trumps-insurrection-with... Given the difficulty of maintaining Rule of Law under One Country Two Systems (as Tibet and Hong Kong showed), your hope of Rule of Law would object One Country Two Systems. Also, before demonizing Two Country Two Systems, have you experienced it firsthand and come to your own conclusion? Do you know what you are disagreeing with? Given the disinformation campaign of CCP [10], that is, CCP regularly injects disinformation into media (or in this case, deliberately confusing “Rule of Law” with “Rule by Law” in a newspeak way [1][2]), it is hard for Mainlanders to know about Hong Kong and have an informed opinion, even when they moved outside China. [10]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20740179 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20740179