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What can Fleet do that VSCode doesn't already do better? I'm looking at the architecture description [1], and it seems like it's set up almost identically to ho

What can Fleet do that VSCode doesn't already do better? I'm looking at the architecture description [1], and it seems like it's set up almost identically to how VSCode handles remote editing and language servers. Sure, Fleet is integrated with JetBrains' Spaces, but will that ever stand up to Github's offerings? I use both VSCode and JetBrains' IDEs in my day-to-day work so I would consider myself as having one foot in either camp, but I'm really struggling to come up with anything positive to say about Fleet, and the description that they've posted isn't doing anything to help me with that. [1] https://www.jetbrains.com/fleet/#distributive https://www.jetbrains.com/fleet/#distributive

wokwokwok 5y ago
Well, I mean to be fair the coding services for most languages in vscode other than js (ie java, c, rust, python, go, php, c#, ruby specifically) suck totally compared to the JB tooling. Let’s not play “pretend vscode is amazing” here today. The plug-ins for many languages are of massively varying quality and some of them really suck. The only thing they having going for them is being free. So… It’s pretty questionable to say: > What can Fleet do that VSCode doesn't already do better? Obviously, support languages with the full range of JB tooling, that is categorically better than the pathetic support vscode offers for, say, c#. …but, those tools cost $$$, and if you mean, “is it worth paying for the things Fleet can do over vscode…?” Well… it’s hard to say. Probably not for most vscode users.
- quanticle 5y ago
  >Well, I mean to be fair the coding services for most languages in vscode other than js (ie java, c, rust, python, go, php, c#, ruby specifically) suck totally compared to the JB tooling. I have to disagree. JetBrains' tooling is superior for Java and Kotlin. For C#, Visual Studio is pretty good these days, even without Resharper. For everything else VSCode is unquestionably better. I can just point VSCode at a directory full of Python files with a virtualenv, and VSCode just "gets it", and lets me jump right in to editing, with autocomplete and suggestions. With PyCharm, I have to manually configure the interpreter root, set the project root, and wait for it to do a bunch of indexing before I can do anything at all. Yes, once it's all set up, I have marginally better suggestions, but as VSCode's Python tooling gets better, that setup cost becomes less and less worth it. >The plug-ins for many languages are of massively varying quality and some of them really suck. Agreed, but that cuts both ways. I would argue that, at this point, VSCode's Calva plugin for Clojure is superior to IntelliJ's Cursive. Similarly, I found VSCode's Rust plugin to be easier to set up and get started with in a WSL environment than the Rust plugin for CLion. Sure, VSCode's support for Java is a garbage fire and its support for Kotlin is nigh non-existent, but as far as I'm concerned, both sides have pretty huge blind-spots when it comes to languages that are "second-class citizens" for their respective ecosystems. >Obviously, support languages with the full range of JB tooling, that is categorically better than the pathetic support vscode offers for, say, c#. Whether the tooling can be categorically better is difficult to say. After all, the architecture of Fleet is pretty much the same as the architecture of VSCode. They're both editors which use a client-server architecture to enable suggestions and remote editing. I'm not sure how much of JetBrains' IDE work will translate over, and I'm not sure how much of it they want to bring over. As I stated in my other comment [1], unlike Microsoft, JetBrains doesn't have anything except its IDEs. They don't have a cloud platform that is more important to them than IDE sales. The IDEs are everything to them, and instead of making the IDEs better they're off chasing taillights. This seems like a mid-2010s Mozilla maneuver (like FirefoxOS) and I hope it doesn't do as much damage to JetBrains as FirefoxOS did to Mozilla. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29377859 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29377859
  - wokwokwok 5y ago
    > For C#, Visual Studio is pretty good these day We’re not talking about visual studio. We’re talking about vscode. You wanted to know why someone would use it over vscode: the answer is that vscode has poor support for some languages. Whether you personally prefer the vscode tooling in say rust, to the debugger in clion is your personal choice; but you are misrepresenting the situation if you say the latter, with different/more features, is of no value to anyone. > I'm not sure how much of JetBrains' IDE work will translate over, and I'm not sure how much of it they want to bring over. Well, if you caveat your opinion with the assumption that the product will be worse than their other existing products, poorly executed and poorly supported, that’s a fair reason to think it won’t be any good. …and to be fair, jetbrains have struggled with their various online service offerings. …but, if you assume it’s a failure don’t ask why you might think it would be useful. You’ve already decided that without trying it. What can I say? You’re right. If it’s shit, there no reason you would use it over vscode. Maybe it will be; I personally, don’t think it’s clear at this point that’s the case, yet.
    - quanticle 5y ago
      >You’ve already decided that without trying it. What can I say? You’re right. If it’s shit, there no reason you would use it over vscode. Microsoft had a clear incentive to make VSCode not shit: Azure, Visual Studio Online, and, later, Github. But what is JetBrains' incentive to make Fleet good?
      - wokwokwok 5y ago
        How should I know wtf their product plan is? Maybe they want to transition people from “pays x per month” for an IDE license to “pays per hour of usage” on Spaces as a payment model because it’s more granular which means more reliable billing? (Same as yearly -> monthly they did previously? Maybe they have analytics that shows year-on-year decline in desktop IDE usage vs. hosted IDE usage and they want to be part of that market? Maybe they want to gather a big base of free-tier users that they can up sell hosted plans to? Why do you think they’re doing it? ‘Cause they’re a bunch of clueless idiots? Come on, jetbrains is many things, and not all of them good, but clueless idiots they are not. Fleet may end up being a failure because it is poorly executed, because it conflicts with the goals of other teams, or for product reasons (eg. turns out it’s $30/month). …but it’s not a forgone conclusion at this point. Come on dude, give it the benefit of the doubt ffs. Why would you cling to vscode and never try anything else, and critique anyone for even trying to make something similar, or maybe better? That’s weird.
- underdeserver 5y ago
  Yep. Honestly, if Jetbrains made a perfect clone of VSCode, but with all the language support and plugins I use remade in high quality, I'd be happy to pay for it.
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wokwokwok 5y ago

Well, I mean to be fair the coding services for most languages in vscode other than js (ie java, c, rust, python, go, php, c#, ruby specifically) suck totally compared to the JB tooling. Let’s not play “pretend vscode is amazing” here today. The plug-ins for many languages are of massively varying quality and some of them really suck. The only thing they having going for them is being free. So… It’s pretty questionable to say: > What can Fleet do that VSCode doesn't already do better? Obviously, support languages with the full range of JB tooling, that is categorically better than the pathetic support vscode offers for, say, c#. …but, those tools cost $$$, and if you mean, “is it worth paying for the things Fleet can do over vscode…?” Well… it’s hard to say. Probably not for most vscode users.

quanticle 5y ago
>Well, I mean to be fair the coding services for most languages in vscode other than js (ie java, c, rust, python, go, php, c#, ruby specifically) suck totally compared to the JB tooling. I have to disagree. JetBrains' tooling is superior for Java and Kotlin. For C#, Visual Studio is pretty good these days, even without Resharper. For everything else VSCode is unquestionably better. I can just point VSCode at a directory full of Python files with a virtualenv, and VSCode just "gets it", and lets me jump right in to editing, with autocomplete and suggestions. With PyCharm, I have to manually configure the interpreter root, set the project root, and wait for it to do a bunch of indexing before I can do anything at all. Yes, once it's all set up, I have marginally better suggestions, but as VSCode's Python tooling gets better, that setup cost becomes less and less worth it. >The plug-ins for many languages are of massively varying quality and some of them really suck. Agreed, but that cuts both ways. I would argue that, at this point, VSCode's Calva plugin for Clojure is superior to IntelliJ's Cursive. Similarly, I found VSCode's Rust plugin to be easier to set up and get started with in a WSL environment than the Rust plugin for CLion. Sure, VSCode's support for Java is a garbage fire and its support for Kotlin is nigh non-existent, but as far as I'm concerned, both sides have pretty huge blind-spots when it comes to languages that are "second-class citizens" for their respective ecosystems. >Obviously, support languages with the full range of JB tooling, that is categorically better than the pathetic support vscode offers for, say, c#. Whether the tooling can be categorically better is difficult to say. After all, the architecture of Fleet is pretty much the same as the architecture of VSCode. They're both editors which use a client-server architecture to enable suggestions and remote editing. I'm not sure how much of JetBrains' IDE work will translate over, and I'm not sure how much of it they want to bring over. As I stated in my other comment [1], unlike Microsoft, JetBrains doesn't have anything except its IDEs. They don't have a cloud platform that is more important to them than IDE sales. The IDEs are everything to them, and instead of making the IDEs better they're off chasing taillights. This seems like a mid-2010s Mozilla maneuver (like FirefoxOS) and I hope it doesn't do as much damage to JetBrains as FirefoxOS did to Mozilla. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29377859 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29377859
- wokwokwok 5y ago
  > For C#, Visual Studio is pretty good these day We’re not talking about visual studio. We’re talking about vscode. You wanted to know why someone would use it over vscode: the answer is that vscode has poor support for some languages. Whether you personally prefer the vscode tooling in say rust, to the debugger in clion is your personal choice; but you are misrepresenting the situation if you say the latter, with different/more features, is of no value to anyone. > I'm not sure how much of JetBrains' IDE work will translate over, and I'm not sure how much of it they want to bring over. Well, if you caveat your opinion with the assumption that the product will be worse than their other existing products, poorly executed and poorly supported, that’s a fair reason to think it won’t be any good. …and to be fair, jetbrains have struggled with their various online service offerings. …but, if you assume it’s a failure don’t ask why you might think it would be useful. You’ve already decided that without trying it. What can I say? You’re right. If it’s shit, there no reason you would use it over vscode. Maybe it will be; I personally, don’t think it’s clear at this point that’s the case, yet.
  - quanticle 5y ago
    >You’ve already decided that without trying it. What can I say? You’re right. If it’s shit, there no reason you would use it over vscode. Microsoft had a clear incentive to make VSCode not shit: Azure, Visual Studio Online, and, later, Github. But what is JetBrains' incentive to make Fleet good?
    - wokwokwok 5y ago
      How should I know wtf their product plan is? Maybe they want to transition people from “pays x per month” for an IDE license to “pays per hour of usage” on Spaces as a payment model because it’s more granular which means more reliable billing? (Same as yearly -> monthly they did previously? Maybe they have analytics that shows year-on-year decline in desktop IDE usage vs. hosted IDE usage and they want to be part of that market? Maybe they want to gather a big base of free-tier users that they can up sell hosted plans to? Why do you think they’re doing it? ‘Cause they’re a bunch of clueless idiots? Come on, jetbrains is many things, and not all of them good, but clueless idiots they are not. Fleet may end up being a failure because it is poorly executed, because it conflicts with the goals of other teams, or for product reasons (eg. turns out it’s $30/month). …but it’s not a forgone conclusion at this point. Come on dude, give it the benefit of the doubt ffs. Why would you cling to vscode and never try anything else, and critique anyone for even trying to make something similar, or maybe better? That’s weird.
underdeserver 5y ago
Yep. Honestly, if Jetbrains made a perfect clone of VSCode, but with all the language support and plugins I use remade in high quality, I'd be happy to pay for it.

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