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> profit too low > important growth metrics > product storytelling Yup. Everything that's wrong with (predominately US) modern business culture. Product doe

> profit too low > important growth metrics > product storytelling Yup. Everything that's wrong with (predominately US) modern business culture. Product doesn't matter, storytelling is. Nothing matters, inflated growth metrics do. Profit doesn't matter unless it's high (for some definition of high), but even that doesn't matter if you have hyperinflated growth metrics.

movedx 5y ago
And not actually caring about the problem at hand. "Dude! We could make so much money if we made X!" - but do you actually care about X? Why is money the only reason people are setting up business and solving problems? It should be secondary, a happy side effect of solving hard problems (which people will thank you for with money.)
- brtkdotse 5y ago
  Because people want to pay their rent and eat. “Hard problems” take a lot of work and time and no one is going to pay me to ponder on a tricky algorithm [1] [1] actually there is. It’s called “academia” and from what I’m told it’s pretty miserable to be in
  - educatedfool 5y ago
    Agree. Very hard problems or big investments (e.g. rail network, infrastructure at a country level, basic research with high risk of failure that will take decades) you usually have some form of state agency running it. PS: have not heard a good word about academia from numerous friends in it. Might be regional (EU) but still...
    - movedx 5y ago
      > Agree. Very hard problems or big investments Who said anything about hard problems or "big investments"? I never said that. Why are you saying that?
  - movedx 5y ago
    > Because people want to pay their rent and eat. That's the wrong reason to set up a business, but the right reason to simply get a job. > “Hard problems” Who said anything about hard problems? Are businesses only designed to solve hard problems?
- vasco 5y ago
  If someone solves a problem of mine because they're motivated by money instead of the problem domain I don't really care. Are you upset that the gas station operator doesn't have a hobby about gas?
  - 8n4vidtmkvmk 5y ago
    ppl aren't very good at solving problems they don't have. i imagine it's hard to design a good/efficient gas station if you've never used one before. service reps/tech support aren't very good if they don't use the product. software sucks/is slow to use unless the designers also use it on the daily and feel first-hand what the pain points are.
    - cole-k 5y ago
      I can jive with the idea that people aren't "very good" at solving the problems they don't engage with, but I think it's important to acknowledge that plain old "good" can be enough. To wit, I'm not going to be upset if tech support takes 3 minutes to process my question and reads out an answer from a pamphlet in monotone if it is indeed a solution to my problem. And there is some software that I use _despite_ its pain points because it solves problems I have.
  - movedx 5y ago
    > gas station operator They didn't build the business. They're an employee.
FeepingCreature 5y ago
See also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_beauty_contest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_beauty_contest It doesn't even matter if the business will have profits, it matters if the business will look to future investors like it will have profits.
- mrslave 5y ago
  If only this were Keyne's most famous theory. I believe he (or the greater school of thought built around him) did argue that stimulus through discounted interest rates should be balanced in a timely fashion. But I have to look around the world and wonder which - if any - of our leaders is brave enough to do this? The long trend downwards in interest rates everywhere has not had the desired effect and there are a lot of negative side-effects. But on paper the CPI is kinda OK so it's not a problem, right?
  - devoutsalsa 5y ago
    Without my glasses on, I read that as Kanye’s and was really confused for a good minute.
    - techwind 5y ago
      Keyne West is a well-known creative genius
- FractalHQ 5y ago
  Kind of like crypto, nfts, or stocks right?
brtkdotse 5y ago
The thing people (read: businesses) want to pay for is a) increased revenue or b) lowered costs. You better have a _very_ compelling story on why your product does one or the other, and why they should pick you and not one of your three competitors.
onion2k 5y ago
Everything that's wrong with (predominately US) modern business culture. You're confusing "business" with "investment". Business is the act of making money right now. Buying stuff, selling stuff, providing services, and making enough money to keep the lights on. That's really important stuff. That's how we pay our mortgages and buy food and XBoxes. When you're running a business that stuff should always be front and centre. It's what's important to employees, and the economy, etc. Investment is the act of using money now in order to increase the amount of money you have in the future. Profit, product, and metrics right now are much less important if you're thinking about what happens in 1 or 2 or 5 years time. A company with a good-but-not-great product today could be the next Apple if they're able to realize the potential of the market - that's what investors are looking for. They don't really care how much a business is making today if they're thinking about where it could be in 5 years time.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > Business is the act of making money right now. No idea what type of business you're running. Businesses always looks ahead (unless it's a scam-and-run operation, of course). And investment is also business. However, the incentives have now been twisted beyond all recognition.
kulikalov 5y ago
It seems to me that the opposite tendency would vastly decrease the pace of innovation
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > vastly decrease the pace of innovation What innovation?
vineyardmike 5y ago
They passed due to lack of sufficient profit so I’m not sure you’re point. Product storytelling doesn’t mean smokes and mirrors. They’re buying businesses so it seems like criticizing them for caring about high profit is misplaced.

movedx 5y ago

And not actually caring about the problem at hand. "Dude! We could make so much money if we made X!" - but do you actually care about X? Why is money the only reason people are setting up business and solving problems? It should be secondary, a happy side effect of solving hard problems (which people will thank you for with money.)

brtkdotse 5y ago
Because people want to pay their rent and eat. “Hard problems” take a lot of work and time and no one is going to pay me to ponder on a tricky algorithm [1] [1] actually there is. It’s called “academia” and from what I’m told it’s pretty miserable to be in
- educatedfool 5y ago
  Agree. Very hard problems or big investments (e.g. rail network, infrastructure at a country level, basic research with high risk of failure that will take decades) you usually have some form of state agency running it. PS: have not heard a good word about academia from numerous friends in it. Might be regional (EU) but still...
  - movedx 5y ago
    > Agree. Very hard problems or big investments Who said anything about hard problems or "big investments"? I never said that. Why are you saying that?
- movedx 5y ago
  > Because people want to pay their rent and eat. That's the wrong reason to set up a business, but the right reason to simply get a job. > “Hard problems” Who said anything about hard problems? Are businesses only designed to solve hard problems?
vasco 5y ago
If someone solves a problem of mine because they're motivated by money instead of the problem domain I don't really care. Are you upset that the gas station operator doesn't have a hobby about gas?
- 8n4vidtmkvmk 5y ago
  ppl aren't very good at solving problems they don't have. i imagine it's hard to design a good/efficient gas station if you've never used one before. service reps/tech support aren't very good if they don't use the product. software sucks/is slow to use unless the designers also use it on the daily and feel first-hand what the pain points are.
  - cole-k 5y ago
    I can jive with the idea that people aren't "very good" at solving the problems they don't engage with, but I think it's important to acknowledge that plain old "good" can be enough. To wit, I'm not going to be upset if tech support takes 3 minutes to process my question and reads out an answer from a pamphlet in monotone if it is indeed a solution to my problem. And there is some software that I use _despite_ its pain points because it solves problems I have.
- movedx 5y ago
  > gas station operator They didn't build the business. They're an employee.

FeepingCreature 5y ago

See also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_beauty_contest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_beauty_contest It doesn't even matter if the business will have profits, it matters if the business will look to future investors like it will have profits.

mrslave 5y ago
If only this were Keyne's most famous theory. I believe he (or the greater school of thought built around him) did argue that stimulus through discounted interest rates should be balanced in a timely fashion. But I have to look around the world and wonder which - if any - of our leaders is brave enough to do this? The long trend downwards in interest rates everywhere has not had the desired effect and there are a lot of negative side-effects. But on paper the CPI is kinda OK so it's not a problem, right?
- devoutsalsa 5y ago
  Without my glasses on, I read that as Kanye’s and was really confused for a good minute.
  - techwind 5y ago
    Keyne West is a well-known creative genius
FractalHQ 5y ago
Kind of like crypto, nfts, or stocks right?

brtkdotse 5y ago

The thing people (read: businesses) want to pay for is a) increased revenue or b) lowered costs. You better have a _very_ compelling story on why your product does one or the other, and why they should pick you and not one of your three competitors.

onion2k 5y ago

Everything that's wrong with (predominately US) modern business culture. You're confusing "business" with "investment". Business is the act of making money right now. Buying stuff, selling stuff, providing services, and making enough money to keep the lights on. That's really important stuff. That's how we pay our mortgages and buy food and XBoxes. When you're running a business that stuff should always be front and centre. It's what's important to employees, and the economy, etc. Investment is the act of using money now in order to increase the amount of money you have in the future. Profit, product, and metrics right now are much less important if you're thinking about what happens in 1 or 2 or 5 years time. A company with a good-but-not-great product today could be the next Apple if they're able to realize the potential of the market - that's what investors are looking for. They don't really care how much a business is making today if they're thinking about where it could be in 5 years time.

dmitriid 5y ago
> Business is the act of making money right now. No idea what type of business you're running. Businesses always looks ahead (unless it's a scam-and-run operation, of course). And investment is also business. However, the incentives have now been twisted beyond all recognition.

kulikalov 5y ago

It seems to me that the opposite tendency would vastly decrease the pace of innovation

dmitriid 5y ago
> vastly decrease the pace of innovation What innovation?

vineyardmike 5y ago

They passed due to lack of sufficient profit so I’m not sure you’re point. Product storytelling doesn’t mean smokes and mirrors. They’re buying businesses so it seems like criticizing them for caring about high profit is misplaced.