6 ms·

IMHO, this redesign just adds visual noise. Compare the screenshots of the redesigned Windows 8 Explorer with Finder in OS X: - Win 8: http://cl.ly/321a2D0b1M1

by masnick 15y ago

IMHO, this redesign just adds visual noise. Compare the screenshots of the redesigned Windows 8 Explorer with Finder in OS X: - Win 8: http://cl.ly/321a2D0b1M1G1v1o2r3F http://cl.ly/321a2D0b1M1G1v1o2r3F (from article) - OS X: http://cl.ly/290D3q2Q06203b181C2b http://cl.ly/290D3q2Q06203b181C2b (random Google Images search) I think Microsoft's ribbon approach is horrible for usability. It takes a long time to visually scan all those words/icons to figure out what I want. With OS X, the interface is much cleaner. There are only a few buttons and no extraneous visual noise. Finder stays out of your way and lets you get at your files. I draw this comparison not to start a Mac vs. Windows flame war but to show how wrong-headed I think Microsoft's UI is. Also, refresh accounts for > 6% of Explorer commands. Why don't they just make Explorer refresh automatically and get rid of the need for the command? One thing I do like about the redesign is the prominence of the "copy path" button.

mcastner 15y ago
The copy path button is only necessary because Explorer hides the real path with the fake address bar they use now. I'd bet that mostly power users need to copy the path anyways, and they'll be able to figure out how to click on the address bar and Ctrl+C.
- recoiledsnake 15y ago
  The breadcrumbs on the 'fake path' are extremely useful to jump to one of the parent folders, which is a frequent task, so I appreciate it.
- arethuza 15y ago
  If you select the "fake address" it transforms to the normal path - which feels a bit gimmicky to me.
  - ak217 15y ago
    It may feel gimmicky to you, but it's very functional. Each area of the breadcrumb bar has a distinct and useful function (jump up the hierarchy, list other folders at that hierarchy level, enter textbox mode). It's insanely useful in comparison to any other method I've seen.
    - masnick 15y ago
      Yes, this is a UI element Microsoft has nailed. It does exactly what I expect it to do. The "Copy path" button just saves you a few keystrokes.
recoiledsnake 15y ago
Why use URL shorteners on HN? I feel uneasy clicking on them. There's no real reason to use them. >I think Microsoft's ribbon approach is horrible for usability. It takes a long time to visually scan all those words/icons to figure out what I want. A huge percentage of people are repeat users of Explorer. While it may feel cluttered in the beginning, it will soon become second nature once people get used to it, and it's extremely friendly for newbies since it exposes functions instead of hiding it 3 levels deep in some menu. Are you a regular user of Office 2007+? My concern is that it takes up valuable vertical space on the 16:9 monitors that we are getting these days, especially on netbooks. But you can minimize the ribbo and declutter it. See http://www.winsupersite.com/content/content/140353/win8_explorer_01.jpg http://www.winsupersite.com/content/content/140353/win8_expl...
- ghurlman 15y ago
  CTRL-F1 to minimize/restore the ribbon works on the Office apps now as well; I use it _constantly_.
  - iaskwhy 15y ago
    Extending your comment with some words from the article: "If you collapse the ribbon (double-click the tab, or click the Minimize arrow on the right side of the ribbon), you get even more vertical real estate with our new approach." I double-click on it a lot when working with Office to get focused. When you hide it, if you hover it it will show without taking up all the space it does when it's open.
- barake 15y ago
  Despite the huge ribbon the new layout actually has more vertical space due to the removal of the details pane. Once the ribbon is minimized there would be tons more real estate: http://blogs.msdn.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/communityserver-blogs-components-weblogfiles/00-00-01-29-43-metablogapi/8422.Figure-21-_2D00_-Real-Estate-comparison_5F00_2.png http://blogs.msdn.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/communit...
  - 15y ago
fefzero 15y ago
Personally, I can't stand Finder. I used a Mac for several years every day before I felt like I really figured it out, and even then I didn't feel like it was user-friendly - it just felt incapable of doing many advanced things (for example, how would you "copy path" in Finder?). Not only can you hide the buttons in the ribbon (which is nice if you typically use keyboard shortcuts), but the experience is consistent with other recent Microsoft applications. I'm not sure a computer novice or even 50% or more of non-power users would have any idea what the buttons on Finder do (does anyone know what that eye button does before they click on it?), and I think that's the target demographic here. Power users know how to hide unwanted buttons or the text that goes with the buttons.
- innes 15y ago
  I'm glad I'm not alone. That weird columnar view mode (don't know the term for it) shown in the screenshot from the GP has to be the worst aspect of the Finder. I've been seriously considering getting a Mac laptop and now someone goes and reminds me about the Finder. But presumably there are 3rd party tools that fix the problem, right?
  - masnick 15y ago
    I really like the column view. Why don't you like it?
    - innes 15y ago
      I don't like it because it's very wasteful of screen real-estate. I do want to see directory hierarchy, but I don't want my files list to be squeezed into smaller and smaller space so I can see lists of every sibling folder of every folder in the path down to the folder that I'm viewing. This view isn't useful in proportion with how much space it takes up. IMO, access to directory structure works better as a treeview, separate from the 'current folder' view, rather than as a new column for each step down into the hierarchy. The latter doesn't scale well.
      - 15y ago
xentronium 15y ago
The problem is that finder sucks compared to windows explorer. I've used mac os x for two years now and I still do most file management tasks via command-line. This is not the case in windows and linux, where file managers are usable. I don't like ribbon ui at all, though. But for newcomers it's probably going to be an easier way to manage files. Small anecdote: my grandmother had never used a computer until 6 months ago. One of the hardest things to explain to her was windows context menus. With buttons in the ribbon it would have been so much easier.
nopassrecover 15y ago
I hate the OS X broswer (one of the main reasons I've never been able to make the switch) but agree that the ribbon explorer UI is terrible.
ak217 15y ago
The ribbon lays out the essential commands nicely for novices. Advanced users can double-click the ribbon to hide it, and then the interface is fairly uncluttered. Refresh is done automatically on any filesystems that support it. I think most people do it out of habit, from way back when that wasn't the case. It's pretty funny, people rant about the ribbon, but it is certainly by far the best usability innovation I've seen in recent years. The only thing that remains is the logical step of pushing ribbon headers into the title bar (Office already does this for contextual ribbons, but not for all of them) to take advantage of the infinite height when the window is maximized.
bane 15y ago
For sake of argument (and not for sake of flamewars) I'll assume the opposite since I think there is a valid argument both ways. I'm not sure I would hold the OS X finder up as an example of good design: Complaints about the finder are numerous and common, there are more finder replacements than just about any other system utility. A google search for "OS X finder" reveals that in the top 10 results (excluding images), #2, #3, #5, #6, #7, #8 and #10 are all either complaints about the finder, replacements for the finder, or commentary on complaints about the finder. The titles are things like "How to Make the Max OS X Finder Suck Less" as if it's a given that everybody understands it sucks. "n replacements for the Finder". It's even one of those rare topics that Gruber can find it in himself to complain about Apple. http://daringfireball.net/2002/11/that_finder_thing http://daringfireball.net/2002/11/that_finder_thing Also, once I got over the loss of the investment of brain space to memorize every possible menu item in the MS-Office suite, I've actually found the Ribbon interface to be very enjoyable to use, just as fast for things I know about, and many times faster for things I don't because it makes them easily discoverable. But let's assume for a second I step up to each computer with no idea how to use either (but am familiar with very basic metaphors like a hierarchical file structure). Looking at the OS X finder, I have virtually no idea what any of the buttons do. Left to right: arrows going both directions, one is grayed out. Knowing that files can be organized hierarchically, do those buttons let me jump between siblings? 4 pictographs of no discernible relation to anything to do with file management: e.g. does the second one open up a text editor? the fourth one may have something to do with audio volume or screen brightness there's an eye, does that control my camera? open up a file? only view a file? a gear/light flash/different sort of eye glyph from the one before. if it's a gear maybe this lets me adjust some sort of setting at the interface itself: what is a device vs. a place? what is the relationship to each other? is a place on a device? or is a place something different? Why do I have two columns of what look like folders? are they related to one another? if the rightmost column is supposed to be what's inside of the selected library folder in the second column, does that imply that I can only go one folder deep? then at the bottom I have something that looks like a hard drive (but I wouldn't know that having never seen one), a folder called 'users' (why are there more than one! it's my computer, I'm the only one!), a house and then finally another folder. I'm left with more outstanding questions for what's not on the window. How do I create folders? How do I delete things? How do I rename something? Provided I can figure out that this is a representation of the hierarachical file structure, is there a way to copy or move files between different parts of the file system? How do I add or remove "places"? etc. The principle problems are that the finder is simultaneously underpowered. It also hi-lights something that's sadly becoming more and more common in Apple's interfaces, a lack of discoverability. Sure, the disconnected toolbar up at the top of the screen (or perhaps on a different monitor) may answer some of my questions, and I could hover for tool tips perhaps, but realizing that those things are even connected is a serious interface problem. The new explorer isn't without it's faults: why is there a "File" menu when I'm clearly looking at files, is that something I push to "file" away something? it's got the weird left right arrows and even a weirder up arrow why is there a manage meny? aren't I managing my files right now? But for the most part it achieves discoverability, while also having (or at least doing a better job of revealing) power. Oh! So you push the button clearly labeled "move-to" to move a file to someplace! Oh! There's a button called "open" with a picture of the MS-Word logo, that must open that file in Word. etc. etc. "Also, refresh accounts for > 6% of Explorer commands. Why don't they just make Explorer refresh automatically and get rid of the need for the command?" It does, just sometimes not fast enough for most users. It certainly works better on OS X.
masklinn 15y ago
The Finder is not a very good example of a better explorer UI though, it's pretty consistently awful.
theBobMcCormick 15y ago
Normally I'm not a fan of the over-fetishization of Apple UI and design that tends to happen here on HN, but in this case I have to strongly agree with you that the OSX finder UI (for all it's many quirks and limitations) is vastly better than this new Explorer UI. Hell, the Windows 7 Explorer UI is better. This new Explorer UI is just waaaay to damned cluttered. Putting the Ribbon UI on Explorer is not necessarily a bad thing, but I really thing they could trim down the number of buttons present by default on the "Home" tab of that ribbon. IMHO, this is gonna be intimidating as hell to most casual/non-savvy users.

by masnick 15y ago

mcastner 15y ago

The copy path button is only necessary because Explorer hides the real path with the fake address bar they use now. I'd bet that mostly power users need to copy the path anyways, and they'll be able to figure out how to click on the address bar and Ctrl+C.

recoiledsnake 15y ago
The breadcrumbs on the 'fake path' are extremely useful to jump to one of the parent folders, which is a frequent task, so I appreciate it.
arethuza 15y ago
If you select the "fake address" it transforms to the normal path - which feels a bit gimmicky to me.
- ak217 15y ago
  It may feel gimmicky to you, but it's very functional. Each area of the breadcrumb bar has a distinct and useful function (jump up the hierarchy, list other folders at that hierarchy level, enter textbox mode). It's insanely useful in comparison to any other method I've seen.
  - masnick 15y ago
    Yes, this is a UI element Microsoft has nailed. It does exactly what I expect it to do. The "Copy path" button just saves you a few keystrokes.

recoiledsnake 15y ago

Why use URL shorteners on HN? I feel uneasy clicking on them. There's no real reason to use them. >I think Microsoft's ribbon approach is horrible for usability. It takes a long time to visually scan all those words/icons to figure out what I want. A huge percentage of people are repeat users of Explorer. While it may feel cluttered in the beginning, it will soon become second nature once people get used to it, and it's extremely friendly for newbies since it exposes functions instead of hiding it 3 levels deep in some menu. Are you a regular user of Office 2007+? My concern is that it takes up valuable vertical space on the 16:9 monitors that we are getting these days, especially on netbooks. But you can minimize the ribbo and declutter it. See http://www.winsupersite.com/content/content/140353/win8_explorer_01.jpg http://www.winsupersite.com/content/content/140353/win8_expl...

ghurlman 15y ago
CTRL-F1 to minimize/restore the ribbon works on the Office apps now as well; I use it _constantly_.
- iaskwhy 15y ago
  Extending your comment with some words from the article: "If you collapse the ribbon (double-click the tab, or click the Minimize arrow on the right side of the ribbon), you get even more vertical real estate with our new approach." I double-click on it a lot when working with Office to get focused. When you hide it, if you hover it it will show without taking up all the space it does when it's open.
barake 15y ago
Despite the huge ribbon the new layout actually has more vertical space due to the removal of the details pane. Once the ribbon is minimized there would be tons more real estate: http://blogs.msdn.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/communityserver-blogs-components-weblogfiles/00-00-01-29-43-metablogapi/8422.Figure-21-_2D00_-Real-Estate-comparison_5F00_2.png http://blogs.msdn.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/communit...
- 15y ago

fefzero 15y ago

Personally, I can't stand Finder. I used a Mac for several years every day before I felt like I really figured it out, and even then I didn't feel like it was user-friendly - it just felt incapable of doing many advanced things (for example, how would you "copy path" in Finder?). Not only can you hide the buttons in the ribbon (which is nice if you typically use keyboard shortcuts), but the experience is consistent with other recent Microsoft applications. I'm not sure a computer novice or even 50% or more of non-power users would have any idea what the buttons on Finder do (does anyone know what that eye button does before they click on it?), and I think that's the target demographic here. Power users know how to hide unwanted buttons or the text that goes with the buttons.

innes 15y ago
I'm glad I'm not alone. That weird columnar view mode (don't know the term for it) shown in the screenshot from the GP has to be the worst aspect of the Finder. I've been seriously considering getting a Mac laptop and now someone goes and reminds me about the Finder. But presumably there are 3rd party tools that fix the problem, right?
- masnick 15y ago
  I really like the column view. Why don't you like it?
  - innes 15y ago
    I don't like it because it's very wasteful of screen real-estate. I do want to see directory hierarchy, but I don't want my files list to be squeezed into smaller and smaller space so I can see lists of every sibling folder of every folder in the path down to the folder that I'm viewing. This view isn't useful in proportion with how much space it takes up. IMO, access to directory structure works better as a treeview, separate from the 'current folder' view, rather than as a new column for each step down into the hierarchy. The latter doesn't scale well.
    - 15y ago

xentronium 15y ago

The problem is that finder sucks compared to windows explorer. I've used mac os x for two years now and I still do most file management tasks via command-line. This is not the case in windows and linux, where file managers are usable. I don't like ribbon ui at all, though. But for newcomers it's probably going to be an easier way to manage files. Small anecdote: my grandmother had never used a computer until 6 months ago. One of the hardest things to explain to her was windows context menus. With buttons in the ribbon it would have been so much easier.

nopassrecover 15y ago

I hate the OS X broswer (one of the main reasons I've never been able to make the switch) but agree that the ribbon explorer UI is terrible.

ak217 15y ago

The ribbon lays out the essential commands nicely for novices. Advanced users can double-click the ribbon to hide it, and then the interface is fairly uncluttered. Refresh is done automatically on any filesystems that support it. I think most people do it out of habit, from way back when that wasn't the case. It's pretty funny, people rant about the ribbon, but it is certainly by far the best usability innovation I've seen in recent years. The only thing that remains is the logical step of pushing ribbon headers into the title bar (Office already does this for contextual ribbons, but not for all of them) to take advantage of the infinite height when the window is maximized.

bane 15y ago

For sake of argument (and not for sake of flamewars) I'll assume the opposite since I think there is a valid argument both ways. I'm not sure I would hold the OS X finder up as an example of good design: Complaints about the finder are numerous and common, there are more finder replacements than just about any other system utility. A google search for "OS X finder" reveals that in the top 10 results (excluding images), #2, #3, #5, #6, #7, #8 and #10 are all either complaints about the finder, replacements for the finder, or commentary on complaints about the finder. The titles are things like "How to Make the Max OS X Finder Suck Less" as if it's a given that everybody understands it sucks. "n replacements for the Finder". It's even one of those rare topics that Gruber can find it in himself to complain about Apple. http://daringfireball.net/2002/11/that_finder_thing http://daringfireball.net/2002/11/that_finder_thing Also, once I got over the loss of the investment of brain space to memorize every possible menu item in the MS-Office suite, I've actually found the Ribbon interface to be very enjoyable to use, just as fast for things I know about, and many times faster for things I don't because it makes them easily discoverable. But let's assume for a second I step up to each computer with no idea how to use either (but am familiar with very basic metaphors like a hierarchical file structure). Looking at the OS X finder, I have virtually no idea what any of the buttons do. Left to right: arrows going both directions, one is grayed out. Knowing that files can be organized hierarchically, do those buttons let me jump between siblings? 4 pictographs of no discernible relation to anything to do with file management: e.g. does the second one open up a text editor? the fourth one may have something to do with audio volume or screen brightness there's an eye, does that control my camera? open up a file? only view a file? a gear/light flash/different sort of eye glyph from the one before. if it's a gear maybe this lets me adjust some sort of setting at the interface itself: what is a device vs. a place? what is the relationship to each other? is a place on a device? or is a place something different? Why do I have two columns of what look like folders? are they related to one another? if the rightmost column is supposed to be what's inside of the selected library folder in the second column, does that imply that I can only go one folder deep? then at the bottom I have something that looks like a hard drive (but I wouldn't know that having never seen one), a folder called 'users' (why are there more than one! it's my computer, I'm the only one!), a house and then finally another folder. I'm left with more outstanding questions for what's not on the window. How do I create folders? How do I delete things? How do I rename something? Provided I can figure out that this is a representation of the hierarachical file structure, is there a way to copy or move files between different parts of the file system? How do I add or remove "places"? etc. The principle problems are that the finder is simultaneously underpowered. It also hi-lights something that's sadly becoming more and more common in Apple's interfaces, a lack of discoverability. Sure, the disconnected toolbar up at the top of the screen (or perhaps on a different monitor) may answer some of my questions, and I could hover for tool tips perhaps, but realizing that those things are even connected is a serious interface problem. The new explorer isn't without it's faults: why is there a "File" menu when I'm clearly looking at files, is that something I push to "file" away something? it's got the weird left right arrows and even a weirder up arrow why is there a manage meny? aren't I managing my files right now? But for the most part it achieves discoverability, while also having (or at least doing a better job of revealing) power. Oh! So you push the button clearly labeled "move-to" to move a file to someplace! Oh! There's a button called "open" with a picture of the MS-Word logo, that must open that file in Word. etc. etc. "Also, refresh accounts for > 6% of Explorer commands. Why don't they just make Explorer refresh automatically and get rid of the need for the command?" It does, just sometimes not fast enough for most users. It certainly works better on OS X.

masklinn 15y ago

The Finder is not a very good example of a better explorer UI though, it's pretty consistently awful.

theBobMcCormick 15y ago

Normally I'm not a fan of the over-fetishization of Apple UI and design that tends to happen here on HN, but in this case I have to strongly agree with you that the OSX finder UI (for all it's many quirks and limitations) is vastly better than this new Explorer UI. Hell, the Windows 7 Explorer UI is better. This new Explorer UI is just waaaay to damned cluttered. Putting the Ribbon UI on Explorer is not necessarily a bad thing, but I really thing they could trim down the number of buttons present by default on the "Home" tab of that ribbon. IMHO, this is gonna be intimidating as hell to most casual/non-savvy users.