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Due to low trust in government after decades of corruption and mismanagement of basically everything who can blame them ? And who stepped into into this void of

Due to low trust in government after decades of corruption and mismanagement of basically everything who can blame them ? And who stepped into into this void of authority... Facebook, bastion of truth and science and critical thinking. America's inability to curb its own propaganda machines and its capitalism uber alles rhetoric and group-think boomerangs right back. This pandemic has certainly shaken a lot of nuts out of the rug, but where did those nuts came from ?

syshum 5y ago
Ahh yes, lets blame capitalism for all things. You do realize that capitalism created the vaccine in the first place? That with out capitalism you would have no vaccine to complain about people refusing to take? I really am tried to seeing capitalism blamed on all the worlds problem when it has been capitalism more than anything else that has brought both peace and prosperity to the world
- HanShotFirst 5y ago
  I was shocked to discover, several months after the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines were approved in America and trumpeted as proof of the speed and efficacy of our modern, capitalist medical system... that the Sinopharm and Sputnik V vaccines were both released much earlier, and they actually work very well.
  - Nursie 5y ago
    Do we know how well they work yet, really? (Genuine question) They were released earlier, though I got the impression they were released really without very much phase 2/3 testing at all. If you think the anti-vax folks are having a field day with the current western vaccines being given special accelerated roll-out...
    - fy20 5y ago
      It's been approved in a number of countries but still doesn't have WHO or European approval. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01813-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01813-2 Not being approved could very well be a political move on Europe's part - they have plenty of motives not to approve it, and equally they have plenty of reasons not to trust Russia's claims. In my country it was a running joke that if it's ever available here, the viles would be laced with novichok. The paper is somewhat questionable though as it shows a 100% effectiveness against severe infection. Most likely it is a similar effectiveness to other adenovirus based vaccines, which is less than mRNA vaccines, but still better than no vaccine. It has been reported that some countries are paying close to $20 per dose, so it's not any cheaper than mRNA vaccines.
  - macintux 5y ago
    I think that captures a difference in regulatory regimes, which is different from the medical systems they manage. Moderna and Pfizer both had their vaccines ready almost as soon as Chinese scientists unveiled the genetic sequence. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/03/how-moderna-made-its-mrna-covid-vaccine-so-quickly-noubar-afeyan.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/03/how-moderna-made-its-mrna-co...
  - bluGill 5y ago
    All of those vaccines were created within weeks of the genetic sequence being released. The release dates you are referring to is only about regulatory oversight. Countries like the US and EU (and a long list of others) where Pfizer and Moderna targeted their sales are very careful to not allow the release of anything until they have evidence it works and is safe. For Sputnik V they released it before being sure it worked - which allowed them to release much faster, but there is a reason the rest of the world cried foul - even countries with few regulations didn't allow it to be used until more study was done - study that takes time.
  - JamesBarney 5y ago
    This was 100% a decision based on regulations. The first clinical trial for Pfizer was done in April of 2020, Sputnik was started in June. The difference was Pfizer went through far more and more time consuming clinical trials. I don't know if you can blame FDA's risk adverse views on capitalism.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  > That with out capitalism you would have no vaccine to complain about people refusing to take? Cuba, which is as far away from capitalism as you can get these days, has created five different vaccines. And in any case it wasn't capitalism that created the popular vaccines... the mRNA vaccines build up on decades of public-funded research, the Oxford/AZ vaccine was funded by the university endowment IIRC.
  - syshum 5y ago
    >Oxford/AZ vaccine was funded by the university endowment According to Wikipedia, that vaccine was developed with Venture Capital money from Oxford Sciences Innovation, Google Ventures, and Sequoia Capital, among others. However even if it was "public funding", that public funding is only possible due to the tax base created by the capital system the governments of the world tax to get their funding. As to Cuba, I believe only 2 has passed Phase II Trials, and none are approved for international use by the World Health Organization. Time will tell if they are effective as they claim.
- oigursh 5y ago
  Oxford University was going to open source its vaccine, then the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation stepped in and convinced them to sell exclusive rights to AstraZeneca. https://twitter.com/parismarx/status/1353330538292121602?lang=en https://twitter.com/parismarx/status/1353330538292121602?lan...
- corinroyal 5y ago
  So capitalism is the only economic system capable of producing vaccines? If we had any other system of production, we would just be S.O.L because it takes an kleptocratic, imperialist oligarchy to make stuff? It never fails to surprise me how little thinking technolibertarians do outside of their professional domains. I so wish we trained more generalists capable of recognising at a glance how ludicrous an argument like that is. People who's only qualification is that they're good with computers should really just stop thinking their opinions are useful on topics outside of their domains of expertise.
sneak 5y ago
I can blame them. Low trust in government doesn't logically produce the conclusion "everything government says is false".

syshum 5y ago

Ahh yes, lets blame capitalism for all things. You do realize that capitalism created the vaccine in the first place? That with out capitalism you would have no vaccine to complain about people refusing to take? I really am tried to seeing capitalism blamed on all the worlds problem when it has been capitalism more than anything else that has brought both peace and prosperity to the world

HanShotFirst 5y ago
I was shocked to discover, several months after the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines were approved in America and trumpeted as proof of the speed and efficacy of our modern, capitalist medical system... that the Sinopharm and Sputnik V vaccines were both released much earlier, and they actually work very well.
- Nursie 5y ago
  Do we know how well they work yet, really? (Genuine question) They were released earlier, though I got the impression they were released really without very much phase 2/3 testing at all. If you think the anti-vax folks are having a field day with the current western vaccines being given special accelerated roll-out...
  - fy20 5y ago
    It's been approved in a number of countries but still doesn't have WHO or European approval. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01813-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01813-2 Not being approved could very well be a political move on Europe's part - they have plenty of motives not to approve it, and equally they have plenty of reasons not to trust Russia's claims. In my country it was a running joke that if it's ever available here, the viles would be laced with novichok. The paper is somewhat questionable though as it shows a 100% effectiveness against severe infection. Most likely it is a similar effectiveness to other adenovirus based vaccines, which is less than mRNA vaccines, but still better than no vaccine. It has been reported that some countries are paying close to $20 per dose, so it's not any cheaper than mRNA vaccines.
- macintux 5y ago
  I think that captures a difference in regulatory regimes, which is different from the medical systems they manage. Moderna and Pfizer both had their vaccines ready almost as soon as Chinese scientists unveiled the genetic sequence. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/03/how-moderna-made-its-mrna-covid-vaccine-so-quickly-noubar-afeyan.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/03/how-moderna-made-its-mrna-co...
- bluGill 5y ago
  All of those vaccines were created within weeks of the genetic sequence being released. The release dates you are referring to is only about regulatory oversight. Countries like the US and EU (and a long list of others) where Pfizer and Moderna targeted their sales are very careful to not allow the release of anything until they have evidence it works and is safe. For Sputnik V they released it before being sure it worked - which allowed them to release much faster, but there is a reason the rest of the world cried foul - even countries with few regulations didn't allow it to be used until more study was done - study that takes time.
- JamesBarney 5y ago
  This was 100% a decision based on regulations. The first clinical trial for Pfizer was done in April of 2020, Sputnik was started in June. The difference was Pfizer went through far more and more time consuming clinical trials. I don't know if you can blame FDA's risk adverse views on capitalism.
mschuster91 5y ago
> That with out capitalism you would have no vaccine to complain about people refusing to take? Cuba, which is as far away from capitalism as you can get these days, has created five different vaccines. And in any case it wasn't capitalism that created the popular vaccines... the mRNA vaccines build up on decades of public-funded research, the Oxford/AZ vaccine was funded by the university endowment IIRC.
- syshum 5y ago
  >Oxford/AZ vaccine was funded by the university endowment According to Wikipedia, that vaccine was developed with Venture Capital money from Oxford Sciences Innovation, Google Ventures, and Sequoia Capital, among others. However even if it was "public funding", that public funding is only possible due to the tax base created by the capital system the governments of the world tax to get their funding. As to Cuba, I believe only 2 has passed Phase II Trials, and none are approved for international use by the World Health Organization. Time will tell if they are effective as they claim.
oigursh 5y ago
Oxford University was going to open source its vaccine, then the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation stepped in and convinced them to sell exclusive rights to AstraZeneca. https://twitter.com/parismarx/status/1353330538292121602?lang=en https://twitter.com/parismarx/status/1353330538292121602?lan...
corinroyal 5y ago
So capitalism is the only economic system capable of producing vaccines? If we had any other system of production, we would just be S.O.L because it takes an kleptocratic, imperialist oligarchy to make stuff? It never fails to surprise me how little thinking technolibertarians do outside of their professional domains. I so wish we trained more generalists capable of recognising at a glance how ludicrous an argument like that is. People who's only qualification is that they're good with computers should really just stop thinking their opinions are useful on topics outside of their domains of expertise.

sneak 5y ago

I can blame them. Low trust in government doesn't logically produce the conclusion "everything government says is false".