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I'm not sure how related they are, but I noticed an inverse correlation with users have full access to their systems. As companies locked down systems, users ha

I'm not sure how related they are, but I noticed an inverse correlation with users have full access to their systems. As companies locked down systems, users had less opportunity to explore, learn, optimize (and also break or infect) their systems. Given solid UI design, the security tradeoff is probably worth it if the two are actually connected.

joshspankit 5y ago
110%. You absolutely nailed a big part of it. It’s like shipping entry level jobs to other countries: People lose the ability to learn and grow on the job. They lose the ability to work their way up. Instead you have to rely on an establishment that is hands-off. It’s “study learning” vs actually doing the work.
tambourine_man 5y ago
I think there's a strong correlation. We did gain a lot in security and simplicity with the App Store model. Lots of people that would never install apps on Windows or Macs, due to fear and ignorance, do so regularly on their smartphones. Moreover, they upgrade their OSs and pay with credit cards, etc. On the other hand, those same people had folders on their desktops and managed files reasonably well. And now that even got a bit more confusing on the desktop, especially with MS/Apple insistence in selecting One/iCloud drive by default.
- joshspankit 5y ago
  I don’t want to assume ages, so: there was a time way before the app store where installing an app on a mac was as easy as clicking download and extracting the “file” (it was actually a folder, just like current mac apps). Trying it out only needed a double-clicking on the resulting icon. No install script, no pkg files, no hidden prefs, nothing. Want to uninstall it? Drag it to trash. It was only when Apple started to be affected by mac piracy that they started down the road of restricting everything and when they started making real money selling their own content on their own platform (music then movies through iTunes) they hit the friggin gas.
  - varenc 5y ago
    That’s still how I install 95% of Mac apps? (.dmg) I don’t think the Mac App Store is even that popular. Rarely is an app exclusively there, though times might be changing. About 5% of things come as .pkg installers but usually in a situation where it makes sense. Default macOS will still check for Apple’s seal of approval on software, but this is done by developers signing their distributed app.
    - sneak 5y ago
      There's lots of software that is only distributed in the App Store, which can't be used without an Apple ID (even for free apps), which requires giving Apple a phone number and email address (and the App Store app uploading your unchangeable device hardware serial number). Some apps, like Wireguard, can't even be installed outside of the App Store, because Apple won't sign the entitlements they need to run outside of it.
  - tambourine_man 5y ago
    That can still be the case with self contained app bundles. But the issue is discoverability and trust. Where do you get the app from? Is it safe? App Stores solve all this issues while, unfortunately, making some really useful apps almost impossible to exist.
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
> As companies locked down systems, users had less opportunity to explore, learn, optimize (and also break or infect) their systems. With power comes great responsibility; I'm confident it was a tradeoff, because for every one competent and savvy user, there were ten that would have to call IT every week with yet another virus or breakdown.
- ineedasername 5y ago
  Generally agreed. Especially with ransomware these days I can only imagine how bad it would be if users had admin by default. I think the only reason we don't frequently see that attack vector now on home computers is because they aren't lucrative targets. If many/most corporate PC's were an effective vector into the rest of the systems because they had admin, it would truly be a nightmare. In the past when admin was common viruses were either just to cause a bit of chaos or exfiltrate data. Both bad, but now their is a direct financial incentive to shutdown the entire company. That said, where I work there is a special path to admin if you have an actual need for it. It requires a security training course and special approval from a supervisor and the whoever leads technology in your division. And also signing a disclaimer that you now take full responsibility for any & all things that might possibly go wrong with your system due to use of admin privileges and all the consequences that entails, including "disciplinary actions" (screw up bad and you'll get fired). Makes one a bit more paranoid about security, which is healthy. I just wish the training & approval process included the education & tools needed to spin up your own VM's. It's not hard and the tools are free and (for anyone who really needs admin) relatively user friendly. Otherwise things are very locked down. IT would much rather have you reboot than grant access to taskmanager to kill your own user processes.

joshspankit 5y ago

110%. You absolutely nailed a big part of it. It’s like shipping entry level jobs to other countries: People lose the ability to learn and grow on the job. They lose the ability to work their way up. Instead you have to rely on an establishment that is hands-off. It’s “study learning” vs actually doing the work.

tambourine_man 5y ago

I think there's a strong correlation. We did gain a lot in security and simplicity with the App Store model. Lots of people that would never install apps on Windows or Macs, due to fear and ignorance, do so regularly on their smartphones. Moreover, they upgrade their OSs and pay with credit cards, etc. On the other hand, those same people had folders on their desktops and managed files reasonably well. And now that even got a bit more confusing on the desktop, especially with MS/Apple insistence in selecting One/iCloud drive by default.

joshspankit 5y ago
I don’t want to assume ages, so: there was a time way before the app store where installing an app on a mac was as easy as clicking download and extracting the “file” (it was actually a folder, just like current mac apps). Trying it out only needed a double-clicking on the resulting icon. No install script, no pkg files, no hidden prefs, nothing. Want to uninstall it? Drag it to trash. It was only when Apple started to be affected by mac piracy that they started down the road of restricting everything and when they started making real money selling their own content on their own platform (music then movies through iTunes) they hit the friggin gas.
- varenc 5y ago
  That’s still how I install 95% of Mac apps? (.dmg) I don’t think the Mac App Store is even that popular. Rarely is an app exclusively there, though times might be changing. About 5% of things come as .pkg installers but usually in a situation where it makes sense. Default macOS will still check for Apple’s seal of approval on software, but this is done by developers signing their distributed app.
  - sneak 5y ago
    There's lots of software that is only distributed in the App Store, which can't be used without an Apple ID (even for free apps), which requires giving Apple a phone number and email address (and the App Store app uploading your unchangeable device hardware serial number). Some apps, like Wireguard, can't even be installed outside of the App Store, because Apple won't sign the entitlements they need to run outside of it.
- tambourine_man 5y ago
  That can still be the case with self contained app bundles. But the issue is discoverability and trust. Where do you get the app from? Is it safe? App Stores solve all this issues while, unfortunately, making some really useful apps almost impossible to exist.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

> As companies locked down systems, users had less opportunity to explore, learn, optimize (and also break or infect) their systems. With power comes great responsibility; I'm confident it was a tradeoff, because for every one competent and savvy user, there were ten that would have to call IT every week with yet another virus or breakdown.

ineedasername 5y ago
Generally agreed. Especially with ransomware these days I can only imagine how bad it would be if users had admin by default. I think the only reason we don't frequently see that attack vector now on home computers is because they aren't lucrative targets. If many/most corporate PC's were an effective vector into the rest of the systems because they had admin, it would truly be a nightmare. In the past when admin was common viruses were either just to cause a bit of chaos or exfiltrate data. Both bad, but now their is a direct financial incentive to shutdown the entire company. That said, where I work there is a special path to admin if you have an actual need for it. It requires a security training course and special approval from a supervisor and the whoever leads technology in your division. And also signing a disclaimer that you now take full responsibility for any & all things that might possibly go wrong with your system due to use of admin privileges and all the consequences that entails, including "disciplinary actions" (screw up bad and you'll get fired). Makes one a bit more paranoid about security, which is healthy. I just wish the training & approval process included the education & tools needed to spin up your own VM's. It's not hard and the tools are free and (for anyone who really needs admin) relatively user friendly. Otherwise things are very locked down. IT would much rather have you reboot than grant access to taskmanager to kill your own user processes.