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It actually doesn’t seem like that bad of an idea to me, at least under the assumption that you’re not going to maintain an entirely separate UI for the mobile

It actually doesn’t seem like that bad of an idea to me, at least under the assumption that you’re not going to maintain an entirely separate UI for the mobile and desktop apps (which would be ideal, but is incredibly expensive and tends to result in broken and missing features on one or both platforms even for companies with enormous budgets). I would argue that “reducing to the lowest common denominator” actually is one of the more reasonable solutions among the feasible options. It certainly isn’t a great solution to create a UI that is impossible to understand without tooltips and ship that UI to mobile devices without the tooltips!

jakear 5y ago
Best option is to provide choice. Icons with Labels by default, show keyboard shortcut on hover. Want just icons? There’s a config option for that. Want just labels? Also an option. Want no toolbar at all, and only use shortcuts? Also an option.
- skeeter2020 5y ago
  It ebbs and flows but I feel like we're coming to the end of a long period of "convention over configuration" that prioritized consistent, predictable behaviour across systems at the cost of powerful options & custom configurations. I understand what you're saying but there's also cost to implement and maintain all those options you want, plus a huge set of testing combinations for QA
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  I clicked your profile to see exactly who would come up with such an odd take, and then it made sense. I actually agree with you that this type of deep customisation is great for a "productivity tool" like VS Code. For something that people don't spend hours of every day in, though (say, a weather app), you don't need or want this level of customisation.
  - jakear 5y ago
    Hah, such a sleuth :) Though I was actually thinking of SketchUp when writing that. VS Code does not provide always-visible labels for icons (tooltip only), though it’s something we’ve discussed and I’m in favor of. I believe Teams recently adopted them.
- fnord77 5y ago
  abundance of choice is inversely correlated with satisfaction https://www.swarthmore.edu/SocSci/bschwar1/Sci.Amer.pdf https://www.swarthmore.edu/SocSci/bschwar1/Sci.Amer.pdf
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    When the extra choices are useless, and the few choices are genuinely the best ones, sure. That's not what we're seeing.
  - jakear 5y ago
    That applies to when a choice must be made before the user can proceed, or when making once choice has an associated opportunity cost that prevents/discourages the user from making other choices. If the user is presented with sane defaults from the start and can also try toggling a checkbox in a settings UI to instantly test alternatives, the study does not apply.
  - Jach 5y ago
    As the siblings mention it doesn't really apply here because the choices aren't one-shot, you aren't stuck with one, you have time to consider, choices can differ a lot, etc. But really any supposed psychological phenomenon should be looked at skeptically absent overwhelming evidence like IQ or the Big 5 personality traits. Here are three links on "choice overload": https://www.researchgate.net/publication/48210291_Can_There_Ever_be_Too_Many_Options_A_Meta-analytic_Review_of_Choice_Overload https://www.researchgate.net/publication/48210291_Can_There_... 2010 meta-analysis, "we found a mean effect size of virtually zero but considerable variance between studies" https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8426193 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8426193 2018, "...where they could compare them one another anytime with relatively low cognitive load, the choice overload did not occur (Experiment 1). ... where participants had to compare them based on memory representations with relatively high cognitive load, the choice overload did occur (Experiment 2). These results suggest that the choice overload is actually replicable when cognitive load is sufficiently boosted." http://psychbrief.com/choice-paradox/ http://psychbrief.com/choice-paradox/ Nice overview of some actual studies and the underlying experiments, as well as common flaws in the mathematical methods used for analysis that apply to many psychology studies.
kymaz 5y ago
It's a terrible idea to me! Like sure, I know the devs want to do the minimum of work, but that doesn't make it a good idea to take the easy way out.
karaterobot 5y ago
> It certainly isn’t a great solution to create a UI that is impossible to understand without tooltips and ship that UI to mobile devices without the tooltips! Right, so don't do that. But, desktop and mobile are different platforms with different input devices, and designers should make use of both to create the best experience for users. There are certainly tradeoffs in terms of cost to implement versus value for users, and if the argument is "it will simply cost us too much money to implement tooltips" then I suppose that's up to the product manager or equivalent. But, "we can't have tooltips on desktop because the mobile version doesn't support them" is a non sequitor. If a UX person gave that as a reason, I'd have some questions for them.

jakear 5y ago

Best option is to provide choice. Icons with Labels by default, show keyboard shortcut on hover. Want just icons? There’s a config option for that. Want just labels? Also an option. Want no toolbar at all, and only use shortcuts? Also an option.

skeeter2020 5y ago
It ebbs and flows but I feel like we're coming to the end of a long period of "convention over configuration" that prioritized consistent, predictable behaviour across systems at the cost of powerful options & custom configurations. I understand what you're saying but there's also cost to implement and maintain all those options you want, plus a huge set of testing combinations for QA
AussieWog93 5y ago
I clicked your profile to see exactly who would come up with such an odd take, and then it made sense. I actually agree with you that this type of deep customisation is great for a "productivity tool" like VS Code. For something that people don't spend hours of every day in, though (say, a weather app), you don't need or want this level of customisation.
- jakear 5y ago
  Hah, such a sleuth :) Though I was actually thinking of SketchUp when writing that. VS Code does not provide always-visible labels for icons (tooltip only), though it’s something we’ve discussed and I’m in favor of. I believe Teams recently adopted them.
fnord77 5y ago
abundance of choice is inversely correlated with satisfaction https://www.swarthmore.edu/SocSci/bschwar1/Sci.Amer.pdf https://www.swarthmore.edu/SocSci/bschwar1/Sci.Amer.pdf
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  When the extra choices are useless, and the few choices are genuinely the best ones, sure. That's not what we're seeing.
- jakear 5y ago
  That applies to when a choice must be made before the user can proceed, or when making once choice has an associated opportunity cost that prevents/discourages the user from making other choices. If the user is presented with sane defaults from the start and can also try toggling a checkbox in a settings UI to instantly test alternatives, the study does not apply.
- Jach 5y ago
  As the siblings mention it doesn't really apply here because the choices aren't one-shot, you aren't stuck with one, you have time to consider, choices can differ a lot, etc. But really any supposed psychological phenomenon should be looked at skeptically absent overwhelming evidence like IQ or the Big 5 personality traits. Here are three links on "choice overload": https://www.researchgate.net/publication/48210291_Can_There_Ever_be_Too_Many_Options_A_Meta-analytic_Review_of_Choice_Overload https://www.researchgate.net/publication/48210291_Can_There_... 2010 meta-analysis, "we found a mean effect size of virtually zero but considerable variance between studies" https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8426193 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8426193 2018, "...where they could compare them one another anytime with relatively low cognitive load, the choice overload did not occur (Experiment 1). ... where participants had to compare them based on memory representations with relatively high cognitive load, the choice overload did occur (Experiment 2). These results suggest that the choice overload is actually replicable when cognitive load is sufficiently boosted." http://psychbrief.com/choice-paradox/ http://psychbrief.com/choice-paradox/ Nice overview of some actual studies and the underlying experiments, as well as common flaws in the mathematical methods used for analysis that apply to many psychology studies.

kymaz 5y ago

It's a terrible idea to me! Like sure, I know the devs want to do the minimum of work, but that doesn't make it a good idea to take the easy way out.

karaterobot 5y ago

> It certainly isn’t a great solution to create a UI that is impossible to understand without tooltips and ship that UI to mobile devices without the tooltips! Right, so don't do that. But, desktop and mobile are different platforms with different input devices, and designers should make use of both to create the best experience for users. There are certainly tradeoffs in terms of cost to implement versus value for users, and if the argument is "it will simply cost us too much money to implement tooltips" then I suppose that's up to the product manager or equivalent. But, "we can't have tooltips on desktop because the mobile version doesn't support them" is a non sequitor. If a UX person gave that as a reason, I'd have some questions for them.