5 ms·

Seems obvious that a structure present in pretty much ALL humans has some evolved purpose. If you want to scare yourself, search for "empty nose syndrome" and

by klipt 5y ago

Seems obvious that a structure present in pretty much ALL humans has some evolved purpose. If you want to scare yourself, search for "empty nose syndrome" and you'll find horror stories of people feeling like something is horribly wrong after surgeons removed their turbinates (often without telling them, while doing another procedure like deviated septum) ... some even end up committing suicide. Chesterton's Fence comes to mind: > The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.” To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.”

s5300 5y ago
Came here to talk about empty nose syndrome. If you have any sort of general hypersensitivity or touch disorders, don’t let anybody ever touch your turbinates. You’ll likely go mad. Note: this isn’t saying the only people to get ENS are those with a hypersensitivity/similar disorder
msla 5y ago
> Seems obvious that a structure present in pretty much ALL humans has some evolved purpose. Contrast with the length of the recurrent laryngeal nerve: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recurrent_laryngeal_nerve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recurrent_laryngeal_nerve > The extreme detour of the recurrent laryngeal nerves, about 4.6 metres (15 ft) in the case of giraffes,[27]: 74–75 is cited as evidence of evolution, as opposed to Intelligent Design. The nerve's route would have been direct in the fish-like ancestors of modern tetrapods, traveling from the brain, past the heart, to the gills (as it does in modern fish). Over the course of evolution, as the neck extended and the heart became lower in the body, the laryngeal nerve was caught on the wrong side of the heart. Natural selection gradually lengthened the nerve by tiny increments to accommodate, resulting in the circuitous route now observed.[28]: 360–362 Imagine how long the nerve must have been in long-necked sauropods: https://bioone.org/journals/acta-palaeontologica-polonica/volume-57/issue-2/app.2011.0019/A-Monument-of-Inefficiency--The-Presumed-Course-of-the/10.4202/app.2011.0019.full https://bioone.org/journals/acta-palaeontologica-polonica/vo... > The course of the recurrent laryngeal nerve appears to be an unchanging aspect of tetrapod embryology, being as developmentally fixed as the presence of a heart and paired vessels to the head. The existence of 28 m neurons in the RLN of Supersaurus may seem fantastic, but they appear unavoidable given what we know of tetrapod embryology and evolution. Other neurons in the bodies of sauropods were even longer, spanning the entire distance from the brainstem to the tip of the tail, and may have been the longest cells in the history of life. These incredible cells represent the interplay of evolutionary innovation and developmental constraint: the acquisition of giant, long-necked and long-tailed bodies built on a deeply conserved tetrapod bauplan.
- klipt 5y ago
  Hmm yes but a suboptimal nerve is still not the same as a useless nerve - I'm sure you wouldn't want a surgeon pulling yours out because "I don't see the use of this!" ;-)
- voldacar 5y ago
  >Contrast with the length of the recurrent laryngeal nerve Yes but that is noteworthy precisely because it is the exception to the general rule. It is almost always (99%+) correct that a strange structure has some kind of meaningful purpose.
- PeterisP 5y ago
  However, your own answer clearly lists the evolved purpose of that nerve - it was the simple and straight line from brain past the heart to the gills; and there is an obvious reason why it can't be changed - there's no direct mutation possible to route it to the other side. On the other hand, there generally are possible direct mutations that would significantly reduce any tissue/structure, so if they aren't "chosen", then that does indicate that the tissue still has some purpose (which might have no relation to the purpose it had when it first appeared).
vecter 5y ago
I had a septoplasty (to fix a deviated septum) and a turbinate reduction via submucosal debrider. For the first two weeks after the operation, I experienced severe Empty Nose Syndrome. I felt like I was suffocating and short of breath all of the time. I slept two hours every night. It was excruciating in a way that I simply cannot put into words. After two days, I had thoughts of ending my life. It was that bad. Luckily I've healed since the operation but still have mild symptoms a few months after. For a while, I had too much "openness" in my nose which felt like there was little to no air resistance. I still get that sometimes. I'm lucky though because I'm back to 70% normal. However, I'm in a private Facebook group for ENS sufferers with over 3,000 people and reading about their daily struggles is absolutely brutal, especially since I was going crazy after experiencing them for only a week or two. For anyone considering a turbinate reduction, DO NOT DO IT. The risks are too great, and unfortunately the ENT community has a perverse incentive to hide the facts. To give you a sense of this, the week after my operation when I was struggling with the suffocating feeling, I told my ENT surgeon and he coldly offered to give me antidepressants. I was shocked and livid, because I knew that he knew exactly what was going on, but instead of acknowledging the problem, he tried to sweep it under the rug and treat it as a psychological illness. I guarantee you as someone who's experienced it, it is everything except for psychological. You won't find good data on ENS risk because almost no ENTs will actually diagnose it. My primary ENT (not the ENT surgeon who performed the operation) basically told me that I didn't have it because I still had my turbinates. This is also blatantly false [0]. My ENT suggested that I should see a pulmonologist but my lungs are totally fine. They will do everything they can to deny and deflect responsibility. Don't let yourself been their next victim. Feel free to reach out to me if you have more questions or are considering getting a turbinate reduction. My contact info is in my profile. I cannot urge you strongly enough to avoid this operation at all costs. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVWHOQ7P3wk&t=6m13s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVWHOQ7P3wk&t=6m13s
- diob 5y ago
  Damn, I got goaded into this to "fix" my sleep apnea. Didn't really fix it, I still needed a cpap. I can breathe out my nose now, but it's always felt wrong. And my sense of smell sucks.
ReactiveJelly 5y ago
WP link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empty_nose_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empty_nose_syndrome
dannyw 5y ago
YMMV, but turbinate reduction / septoplasty has led to a huge improvement in my quality of life. No ENS. Been two years since surgery, benefits still persistent just like after surgery. Life changing, for the better.

by klipt 5y ago

s5300 5y ago

Came here to talk about empty nose syndrome. If you have any sort of general hypersensitivity or touch disorders, don’t let anybody ever touch your turbinates. You’ll likely go mad. Note: this isn’t saying the only people to get ENS are those with a hypersensitivity/similar disorder

msla 5y ago

> Seems obvious that a structure present in pretty much ALL humans has some evolved purpose. Contrast with the length of the recurrent laryngeal nerve: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recurrent_laryngeal_nerve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recurrent_laryngeal_nerve > The extreme detour of the recurrent laryngeal nerves, about 4.6 metres (15 ft) in the case of giraffes,[27]: 74–75 is cited as evidence of evolution, as opposed to Intelligent Design. The nerve's route would have been direct in the fish-like ancestors of modern tetrapods, traveling from the brain, past the heart, to the gills (as it does in modern fish). Over the course of evolution, as the neck extended and the heart became lower in the body, the laryngeal nerve was caught on the wrong side of the heart. Natural selection gradually lengthened the nerve by tiny increments to accommodate, resulting in the circuitous route now observed.[28]: 360–362 Imagine how long the nerve must have been in long-necked sauropods: https://bioone.org/journals/acta-palaeontologica-polonica/volume-57/issue-2/app.2011.0019/A-Monument-of-Inefficiency--The-Presumed-Course-of-the/10.4202/app.2011.0019.full https://bioone.org/journals/acta-palaeontologica-polonica/vo... > The course of the recurrent laryngeal nerve appears to be an unchanging aspect of tetrapod embryology, being as developmentally fixed as the presence of a heart and paired vessels to the head. The existence of 28 m neurons in the RLN of Supersaurus may seem fantastic, but they appear unavoidable given what we know of tetrapod embryology and evolution. Other neurons in the bodies of sauropods were even longer, spanning the entire distance from the brainstem to the tip of the tail, and may have been the longest cells in the history of life. These incredible cells represent the interplay of evolutionary innovation and developmental constraint: the acquisition of giant, long-necked and long-tailed bodies built on a deeply conserved tetrapod bauplan.

klipt 5y ago
Hmm yes but a suboptimal nerve is still not the same as a useless nerve - I'm sure you wouldn't want a surgeon pulling yours out because "I don't see the use of this!" ;-)
voldacar 5y ago
>Contrast with the length of the recurrent laryngeal nerve Yes but that is noteworthy precisely because it is the exception to the general rule. It is almost always (99%+) correct that a strange structure has some kind of meaningful purpose.
PeterisP 5y ago
However, your own answer clearly lists the evolved purpose of that nerve - it was the simple and straight line from brain past the heart to the gills; and there is an obvious reason why it can't be changed - there's no direct mutation possible to route it to the other side. On the other hand, there generally are possible direct mutations that would significantly reduce any tissue/structure, so if they aren't "chosen", then that does indicate that the tissue still has some purpose (which might have no relation to the purpose it had when it first appeared).

vecter 5y ago

I had a septoplasty (to fix a deviated septum) and a turbinate reduction via submucosal debrider. For the first two weeks after the operation, I experienced severe Empty Nose Syndrome. I felt like I was suffocating and short of breath all of the time. I slept two hours every night. It was excruciating in a way that I simply cannot put into words. After two days, I had thoughts of ending my life. It was that bad. Luckily I've healed since the operation but still have mild symptoms a few months after. For a while, I had too much "openness" in my nose which felt like there was little to no air resistance. I still get that sometimes. I'm lucky though because I'm back to 70% normal. However, I'm in a private Facebook group for ENS sufferers with over 3,000 people and reading about their daily struggles is absolutely brutal, especially since I was going crazy after experiencing them for only a week or two. For anyone considering a turbinate reduction, DO NOT DO IT. The risks are too great, and unfortunately the ENT community has a perverse incentive to hide the facts. To give you a sense of this, the week after my operation when I was struggling with the suffocating feeling, I told my ENT surgeon and he coldly offered to give me antidepressants. I was shocked and livid, because I knew that he knew exactly what was going on, but instead of acknowledging the problem, he tried to sweep it under the rug and treat it as a psychological illness. I guarantee you as someone who's experienced it, it is everything except for psychological. You won't find good data on ENS risk because almost no ENTs will actually diagnose it. My primary ENT (not the ENT surgeon who performed the operation) basically told me that I didn't have it because I still had my turbinates. This is also blatantly false [0]. My ENT suggested that I should see a pulmonologist but my lungs are totally fine. They will do everything they can to deny and deflect responsibility. Don't let yourself been their next victim. Feel free to reach out to me if you have more questions or are considering getting a turbinate reduction. My contact info is in my profile. I cannot urge you strongly enough to avoid this operation at all costs. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVWHOQ7P3wk&t=6m13s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVWHOQ7P3wk&t=6m13s

diob 5y ago
Damn, I got goaded into this to "fix" my sleep apnea. Didn't really fix it, I still needed a cpap. I can breathe out my nose now, but it's always felt wrong. And my sense of smell sucks.

ReactiveJelly 5y ago

WP link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empty_nose_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empty_nose_syndrome

dannyw 5y ago

YMMV, but turbinate reduction / septoplasty has led to a huge improvement in my quality of life. No ENS. Been two years since surgery, benefits still persistent just like after surgery. Life changing, for the better.