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Ask HN: Know any non Librem5 PinePhone for Mobile Linux? Legacy devices too!

I have not seen any love for the Cosmo's mobile linux hardware. It has much better specs than the Pine and Librem offerings, has a headphone jack unlike the Fairphone 4, and seems criminally unmentioned. https://store.planetcom.co.uk/products/gemini-pda-1 https://store.planetcom.co.uk/products/cosmo-communicator Older Android devices supported by PostMarketOS are also never mentioned, such as these Xiaomi devices, with better specs and will be better devices for general usage, I see GNU/Linux on Android as the natural response to my generally seen Linux usage (longevity of hardware and software support for devices you already own, rather than buying new hardware to run linux). https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Xiaomi_Poco_F1_(xiaomi-beryllium) https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Xiaomi_Redmi_2_(xiaomi-wt88047) I've used Ubuntu Touch with supported devices through Hallium ase well. If any of your old devices support these or you want to talk about other Linux mobile hardware, please do, I think there is too much bias and assumptions that only those 2 are "Linux phones". https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io/

fsflover 5y ago
> I have not seen any love for the Cosmo's mobile linux hardware. This is because they lack the main advantage of L5 an PP: all free drivers allowing to run mainline Linux kernel (or install other operating systems) and therefore guaranteeing lifetime updates. Lack of planned obsolescence and verifiable security. Same with the other hardware. More reasons: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#11-why-buy-the-librem-5 https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque....
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  That isn’t a selling point when Google has been added mainline support for the hardware since Android 8.0 with project treble and now plans to use a generic kernel and upstream to mainline Linux for android. Lots of Qualcomm chips already have mainline support. Kernel support as a selling point matters little when the hardware both companies sell can't function properly, isn’t currently supported, its proof mainline linux support doesn't really mean a functional device, or real support, it is an empty promise and preys on hope that the long outdated hardware they sell new devices with might eventually might work with modern software of the future one day. https://www.xda-developers.com/android-project-mainline-modules-explanation/ https://www.xda-developers.com/android-project-mainline-modu... https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Android-Linux-Upstream-First https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Android-...
  - fsflover 5y ago
    Are the Qualcomm drivers FLOSS or will we have to rely on their willingness to update them for future kernels?
    - GhettoComputers 5y ago
      No idea what that means, but I don’t see the relevancy or mind if it’s not, with corporations contributing most of the code like Microsoft and hardware companies such as Intel.
      - fsflover 5y ago
        Corporations contributing code is great. The problem occurs when you cannot upgrade your Linux kernel, because the drivers are proprietary and Qualcomm won't release a new version (which is AFAIK how they always behave). Even if currently it supports the mainline, it will not support it forever. Only FLOSS drivers can allow lifetime updates, without planned obsolescence.
        GhettoComputers 5y ago
        Why does that matter? 5.14 drops IDE support and lots of other old hardware, nothing is forever. You thought they’d support basically useless hardware nobody uses forever? How many years of “lifetime” do you realistically expect out of the slow Pinephone or Librem 5 hardware? Even sold new they’re ancient parts, how is using old weak hardware and selling it as a new smartphone of all electronics not obviously planned obsolescence? It’s possible someone will volunteer to keep updating the hardware drivers to phones that will be killed by the minimum requirements being raised and network changes but I see the hardware as obsolete already.
        fsflover 5y ago
        > nothing is forever How long is a single Linux version supported? My 12+-year-old laptop currently runs latest Debian, and I don't expect that it's support will end soon. Why would the phones be different? The whole point of L5 and PP is that they are like desktops running desktop OS. Even old Raspberry Pis can serve for good today. The Moor's law is gone. > How many years of “lifetime” do you realistically expect out of the slow Pinephone or Librem 5 hardware? I expect >10 years. Why do I have to change my phones every 3 years and multiply e-waste? The phones (especially L5) can do practically everything, except heavy calculations. They can also serve as thin clients for the latter. Much older Linux phone OpenMoko is still supported, and there is a community for it. > how is using old weak hardware and selling it as a new smartphone of all electronics not obviously planned obsolescence? It sort of is, but it's due to the lack of modern free-software-supporting vendors. By buying these two phones, you vote for such hardware with your wallet (I did).
yosamino 5y ago
What a coincidence. I have a Samsung Galaxy III Mini in front of me that I installed Postmarket OS on the other day. It's so satisfying to be able to view this phone as a normal computing device instead of a locked down phone. And the installation process was so easy. No fiddling around "rooting" a phone - just "pmbootstrap init" and answer a few questions. I've not actually used it as a phone yet, so for me so far the usefullness is limited, but I read it works, and I can write graphics to the framebuffer. Of my own phone! How cool is that! It also boots into a variety of desktops in various states of usability.
- znpy 5y ago
  Serious question: can you make phone calls or send/receive texts with pmOS?
  - willmorrison 5y ago
    Skimmed over some of the wiki and it looks like the answer is yes.
SahAssar 5y ago
The Poco does not have working calls or camera, the redmi seems a lot more reasonable though. As for the cosmos, from what I've heard their linux support is lackluster (as in non-mainline and with a bunch of functionality missing) but that might be outdated. Anyone has first-hand experience?
yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
> the Cosmo's mobile linux hardware I haven't used a Cosmo; perhaps it's better. I do, however, own a Gemini (the first generation of that series), which is the reason I don't own a Cosmo. > https://store.planetcom.co.uk/products/gemini-pda-1 https://store.planetcom.co.uk/products/gemini-pda-1 This is actually a great example with which to answer your question. So this device, the Gemini, sells today, in 2021, for $680.00 (or right now $400 with a black Friday deal). The most recent Android version for it is an Android 8.1 image from 2019[0], using a kernel that doesn't even try to match upstream, also last touched in 2019[1]. Now, they ship an official Debian image, which is super cool! Of course, it still uses the same ancient out-of-tree kernel, and they somehow managed to ship an official image with apt broken. To reiterate: This is the best software officially available for that device, which they are still selling for $680. Okay, so forget the vendor; maybe others have filled in its failures? Well... XDA is dead [2], and PMOS is doing better but the device is still mostly broken[3] and running the same ancient kernel[4]. So: Having owned a Gemini, I decided that unless I had some specific reason to think the situation was going to be better, I wasn't going to waste money on another Planet Computers product. And to your general question, AFAIK this is the reason in general why Pine and Librem as such a big deal: The software doesn't suck; you have an actual hope for getting updates and things working nicely. Hallium might let you use something better than Android, but it still kinda sucks because it just lets you bolt a nicer userspace to the awful base that the vendors ship. [0] https://support.planetcom.co.uk/index.php/Gemini_Firmware https://support.planetcom.co.uk/index.php/Gemini_Firmware [1] https://github.com/dguidipc/gemini-android-kernel-3.18 https://github.com/dguidipc/gemini-android-kernel-3.18 [2] https://forum.xda-developers.com/f/planet-gemini-pda-roms-kernels-recoveries-oth.7557/ https://forum.xda-developers.com/f/planet-gemini-pda-roms-ke... [3] https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Planet_Computers_Gemini_PDA_(planet-geminipda) https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Planet_Computers_Gemini_P... [4] https://gitlab.com/postmarketOS/pmaports/-/blob/master/device/testing/linux-planet-geminipda/APKBUILD https://gitlab.com/postmarketOS/pmaports/-/blob/master/devic...
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  Thanks for the info, I don't care about old kernels but apt that does't work is really ridiculous, the kernel is much older than I thought it would be. >The software doesn't suck; you have an actual hope for getting updates and things working nicely. I would also say this is also not true, the software sucks, the hope of getting things working nicely is the same as hoping an device sold with outdated chromebook hardware sold as a new device from a linux hardware seller that sold them without a functional operating system will work with today's modern applications.
AndroidKitKat 5y ago
I bought a OnePlus 6 for this exact reason. I think a OnePlus 5(t) would work better since the notch gets in the way on the 6(t)!
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  How do you like it?
vlmutolo 5y ago
Keep an eye out for the Pinephone Pro. https://www.pine64.org/pinephonepro/ https://www.pine64.org/pinephonepro/ It's still not crazy-fast, but it's definitely more competitive than the original PinePhone. > Rockchip RK3399S 64bit SoC – 2x A72 and 4x A53 CPU cores @ 1.5GHz > ARM Mali T860 4x core GPU @ 500MHz > 4GB LPDDR4 @ 800MHz > 128GB eMMC flash storage > Optional micro SD card (SDXC up-to 2TB) > 6″ 1440 x 720 in-cell IPS with Gorilla Glass 4™ > 3MP Sony IMX258 main camera > 5MP OmniVision OV5640 front-facing camera > Samsung J7 form-factor 3000mAh > $399
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  I mentioned non pine because it’s also very outdated and a terrible price for slightly less weak hardware. You could get a much better android phone for that price though. It’s not competitive for price to performance.
  - linmob 5y ago
    Sigh. How could they? Have you ever considered economies of scale and that PINE64 don’t make extra money from preinstalling crapware that tracks you?
    - GhettoComputers 5y ago
      Yes and I don’t care, I am not buying crappy hardware with “a made for Linux label” that doesn’t work. This is a $400 phone shaped device with an LCD that’s not even 1080 with a weak processor, emmc (an old iPhone 6S used nvme), single camera setup, all because I can’t uninstall apps but somehow know how to install and use mobile Linux. “Linux hardware” has no real world benefits but many more problems. Most people won’t buy it either, and rightfully so. This is why Linux on mobile will never be served by crappy hardware. It isn’t production ready and at best it’ll be really competitive for phones from 2015. I could at least expect a working phone, but I doubt they can install spyware when they can’t create an OS.
      - reginold 5y ago
freemint 5y ago
HP Touchpad
maheart 5y ago
SailfishOS is officially supported on a number of different Sony mobiles (e.g. X, XA2 range, 10 and 10 II ranges). All these devices continue to receive updates. SailfishOS is not completely FLOSS, but it's real Linux, and it's polished enough to be a daily driver (I've been using it for 7 years).
- pengo 5y ago
  I'm now into my third year with Sailfish as my daily driver (Sony Xperia XA2 Plus) and can confirm it's first rate. And if you need an app that doesn't have a native Sailfish version, it'll almost certainly run the Android equivalent.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  Wow it looks great, I had no idea it existed in a usable state. I though it was just the bones of Meego, I used Moblin on an N800, it was great sat the tine, it looks like a truly functional experience.
- pengaru 5y ago
  I daily drove an N9 when it was current hardware, and it was reasonably good. Harmattan was buggy as hell, but it held promise. However, I found it extremely disappointing that they didn't cater to the FOSS community by making it easy to reproduce and iterate on the OS. If Nokia with the N9 took an approach to the OS and community akin to what Pine64 has been doing with the Pinephone, we would be in a very different place today with Linux phones.
  - sicelo 5y ago
    Pine64 doesn't do any software, so the comparison is apples to oranges :-) The software from the N9 became what today is SailfishOS (mostly FOSS, but UI closed), and for something fully FOSS, Nemo is also derived from Harmattan, https://nemomobile.net/ https://nemomobile.net/
    - pengaru 5y ago
      > Pine64 doesn't do any software, so the comparison is apples to oranges :-) True, but Pine64 facilitates the FOSS community in spades when it comes to shipping a hardware profile with mainline support, and ensuring it's trivial for Pinephone users to run alternative operating systems down to the boot loader. I'm a developer and the N9 was completely opaque, it would have required spending significant time just to even begin figuring out how to replace the OS.
sandreas 5y ago
Maybe an alternative: Xiaomi Mi A2 with CalyxOS (https://calyxos.org/ https://calyxos.org/)
flas9sd 5y ago
the Redmi 2 is a Qualcomm msm8916 device. That SoC is already well mainlined, for anybody wanting to get an idea about mobile linux, pick a phone of that SoC class (most manufacturers had them) because they're the cheapest at ~30 bucks. It will not be very performant (feels like I/O mostly), but still impressive using phosh for the first time in this formfactor.
edude03 5y ago
The OnePlus 6/6T on postmarket are pretty close to daily driver ready They're fast, stable, and if you can live without camera, cellular and fast charging, (which yes, I realize means it's more like a tiny tablet than a phone) everything works beautifully. EDIT: Cellular Data works, just not phone calls, so if you have a low latency/reliable 4G connection you could make VoIP work probably :)
- linmob 5y ago
  This. The OnePlus 6 is a great choice. The Cosmo.. not so much. The available Debian is just broken at this point and has not been maintained for a while.
- h4waii 5y ago
  I really hope HN never changes, so rare to see see something so true, yet insane to the average person at the same time. This OS on a phone is "close to daily driver" and yet phone calls don't work. I mean this not as a slight, I'm a huge fan of Linux on mobile devices, using them since Maemo, Moblin, webOS, SailfishOS, Jolla, and now postmarket and Pine.
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    I don’t think it’s unusual to say you can have calls on iPad with google voice or FT, or to assume people actually use phones for calls anymore. I use only VOIP applications and I wouldn’t have calling if it wasn’t cheaper to have a plan with calling with unlimited data.
  - edude03 5y ago
    > so rare to see see something so true, yet insane to the average person at the same time. People here definitely tend not to be average, myself included. However, I think for the "average" HN user, it's at the point where you could make it work if you wanted to. For the global average user, it's not "technically" far off, just practically since most apps are only for iOS and Android, so even with perfect hardware support the OP6/6T or really any mainline kernel linux device wouldn't be a good fit.
lgrialn 5y ago
What I had read was that Cosmo used Mediatek, who was hostile to openness.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  That is a lie, most mobile arm processors are hostile. Mediatek contributes to the Linux kernel, and it isn’t a recent change. I don’t think they’re worst than any other mobile chip manufacturer. https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Mediatek-MT8192-APU-Driver https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Mediatek... They are the easiest to root on Android too. https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/amazing-temp-root-for-mediatek-armv8-2020-08-24.3922213/ https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/amazing-temp-root-for-med...
sicelo 5y ago
Nokia N900 Motorola Droid 4 For these two, see https://maemo-leste.github.io/ https://maemo-leste.github.io/ You can text and use gps on both of them, as well as make voice calls on the Motorola Droid 4 (calls work on N900, but you need complex audio routing and audio filtering. If anyone has experience with Linux audio, the project will appreciate their assistance) Yes, they both have non-free PowerVR GPU, but its blobs work on Linux mainline, at least
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  Too bad about the CDMA network stuff and 3G, it doesn’t seem like it’ll be usable anymore. If VOIP works I think the calling issue can be mitigated.
  - sicelo 5y ago
    3G is still working where I live, and will be, for quite some time :-) And yes, VoIP works (if you install a VoIP application), so that's a non-issue.
    - GhettoComputers 5y ago
      That's good and bad haha, 3G was terrible. I agree with VoIP, I don't use regular calls anymore. Its amazing that the N900 is still being supported. What do you use these devices for? It seems like you'd have to disable javascript to browse with that ram amount, have to buy expensive replacement batteries or outdated OEM, and make a lot of tradeoffs. What keeps you using them over a newer one or a postmarketOS supported one? I love having control over my hardware, but I am less willing to trade off performance, I will root or jailbreak a phone and use it for 4 years or so, still love my 2012 S3 with root and 2GB ram though!
seba_dos1 5y ago
> I think there is too much bias and assumptions that only those 2 are "Linux phones". And there's a good reason for that. I'm in mobile GNU/Linux space since 2008 when I got my Neo Freerunner and I've been involved in many mobile GNU/Linux projects since, so I've seen plenty of approaches being tried and tested. postmarketOS has made amazing progress, but it would be nowhere near as far as it is right now without native devices which facilitated software progress the most (even inside postmarketOS itself). Why? Porting is always a game of catch-up which more often than not gets abandoned before getting complete as people move to more recent devices and the cycle starts anew. In contrast, devices like Librem 5 or PinePhone (and Freerunner or to some extent even N900 in the past) offer either a good support from the start, or at least a clear maintainable path forward for things that don't work yet, which is something you don't get at all when you have to rely on bits of Android infrastructure. It isn't a coincidence that there are only two phones in the "main" category of postmarketOS-supported devices: https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  Do either work as a daily phone for the owners? A Linux desktop can’t even run ARM android apps, yet it’s expected outdated ARM hardware will. You say you’re been in GNU/Linux on mobile but assert PMOS didn’t have significant progress, had other running phones way before like the Nexus 5 and assert these new phones were the drivers of progress, what evidence is there they didn’t just drain resources from other projects?
  - seba_dos1 5y ago
    I'm using a Librem 5 with PureOS as my daily driver. I can even run the Android app of my bank there, although I have to admit that this part can be wonky (but to be honest, that's not a big deal to me). Before that, I'd been using Nokia N900 for many years after switching from Openmoko Neo Freerunner, which I'd been using for something around 2 or 3 years. Actually, I still keep my N900 around as a backup. I remember when postmarketOS has been created, but that was already pretty late in my book :) You completely forget about earlier porting pioneers, such as SHR that worked on devices like HTC Dream, Nexus S or Palm Pre (and GTA01/02/04, obviously); or even projects that predate my personal involvement, like OpenEZX. We've seen it happening multiple times by now, so there's a lot of insight to take from that already. > had other running phones way before like the Nexus 5 It is pretty clear that you haven't actually used pmOS back then (2017-18), as none of the supported devices could even do phone calls there, and that was far from the only missing basic feature. Which DE would you even run on it for daily usage, Hildon? ;) It sure was an amazing project with a lot of promise already, but absolutely nowhere near being actually usable (aside of some PDA-like use cases). Back then the only linuxy OS that you could actually use on some real-world devices (not counting proprietary ones like Sailfish or already obsolete ones like SHR) was Ubuntu Touch, which was pretty far from the regular desktop architecture (still is and doesn't intend to change that) that's pitched by distros like pmOS, PureOS or Mobian. Things started to move with the advent of Librem 5 (2018) and PinePhone (2020), thanks to Purism investing resources into creating phosh and maintaining supporting infrastructure in GNOME, and Plasma Mobile experiencing an influx of new developers and moving away from Hybris when PinePhone started to become widely available. That work is now directly consumed by ports of pmOS to other devices as well. > what evidence is there they didn’t just drain resources from other projects So, considering all I said above - which other projects? Distros like postmarketOS have been fueled by L5 and PP, not drained. Work on mobile GNOME has been paid for with Librem 5's price. Plasma Mobile was a tech demo until more people started to hack it on the PinePhone. This should be evident to anyone who actually watched that space unfold across the last 15 years. These days we can even start hoping for working phone calls on ported devices like OnePlus 6T, but where do you think the ModemManager code to handle phone calls actually came from? ;]

fsflover 5y ago

> I have not seen any love for the Cosmo's mobile linux hardware. This is because they lack the main advantage of L5 an PP: all free drivers allowing to run mainline Linux kernel (or install other operating systems) and therefore guaranteeing lifetime updates. Lack of planned obsolescence and verifiable security. Same with the other hardware. More reasons: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#11-why-buy-the-librem-5 https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque....

GhettoComputers 5y ago
That isn’t a selling point when Google has been added mainline support for the hardware since Android 8.0 with project treble and now plans to use a generic kernel and upstream to mainline Linux for android. Lots of Qualcomm chips already have mainline support. Kernel support as a selling point matters little when the hardware both companies sell can't function properly, isn’t currently supported, its proof mainline linux support doesn't really mean a functional device, or real support, it is an empty promise and preys on hope that the long outdated hardware they sell new devices with might eventually might work with modern software of the future one day. https://www.xda-developers.com/android-project-mainline-modules-explanation/ https://www.xda-developers.com/android-project-mainline-modu... https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Android-Linux-Upstream-First https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Android-...
- fsflover 5y ago
  Are the Qualcomm drivers FLOSS or will we have to rely on their willingness to update them for future kernels?
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    No idea what that means, but I don’t see the relevancy or mind if it’s not, with corporations contributing most of the code like Microsoft and hardware companies such as Intel.
    - fsflover 5y ago
      Corporations contributing code is great. The problem occurs when you cannot upgrade your Linux kernel, because the drivers are proprietary and Qualcomm won't release a new version (which is AFAIK how they always behave). Even if currently it supports the mainline, it will not support it forever. Only FLOSS drivers can allow lifetime updates, without planned obsolescence.
      - GhettoComputers 5y ago
        Why does that matter? 5.14 drops IDE support and lots of other old hardware, nothing is forever. You thought they’d support basically useless hardware nobody uses forever? How many years of “lifetime” do you realistically expect out of the slow Pinephone or Librem 5 hardware? Even sold new they’re ancient parts, how is using old weak hardware and selling it as a new smartphone of all electronics not obviously planned obsolescence? It’s possible someone will volunteer to keep updating the hardware drivers to phones that will be killed by the minimum requirements being raised and network changes but I see the hardware as obsolete already.
        fsflover 5y ago
        > nothing is forever How long is a single Linux version supported? My 12+-year-old laptop currently runs latest Debian, and I don't expect that it's support will end soon. Why would the phones be different? The whole point of L5 and PP is that they are like desktops running desktop OS. Even old Raspberry Pis can serve for good today. The Moor's law is gone. > How many years of “lifetime” do you realistically expect out of the slow Pinephone or Librem 5 hardware? I expect >10 years. Why do I have to change my phones every 3 years and multiply e-waste? The phones (especially L5) can do practically everything, except heavy calculations. They can also serve as thin clients for the latter. Much older Linux phone OpenMoko is still supported, and there is a community for it. > how is using old weak hardware and selling it as a new smartphone of all electronics not obviously planned obsolescence? It sort of is, but it's due to the lack of modern free-software-supporting vendors. By buying these two phones, you vote for such hardware with your wallet (I did).

yosamino 5y ago

What a coincidence. I have a Samsung Galaxy III Mini in front of me that I installed Postmarket OS on the other day. It's so satisfying to be able to view this phone as a normal computing device instead of a locked down phone. And the installation process was so easy. No fiddling around "rooting" a phone - just "pmbootstrap init" and answer a few questions. I've not actually used it as a phone yet, so for me so far the usefullness is limited, but I read it works, and I can write graphics to the framebuffer. Of my own phone! How cool is that! It also boots into a variety of desktops in various states of usability.

znpy 5y ago
Serious question: can you make phone calls or send/receive texts with pmOS?
- willmorrison 5y ago
  Skimmed over some of the wiki and it looks like the answer is yes.

SahAssar 5y ago

The Poco does not have working calls or camera, the redmi seems a lot more reasonable though. As for the cosmos, from what I've heard their linux support is lackluster (as in non-mainline and with a bunch of functionality missing) but that might be outdated. Anyone has first-hand experience?

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago

> the Cosmo's mobile linux hardware I haven't used a Cosmo; perhaps it's better. I do, however, own a Gemini (the first generation of that series), which is the reason I don't own a Cosmo. > https://store.planetcom.co.uk/products/gemini-pda-1 https://store.planetcom.co.uk/products/gemini-pda-1 This is actually a great example with which to answer your question. So this device, the Gemini, sells today, in 2021, for $680.00 (or right now $400 with a black Friday deal). The most recent Android version for it is an Android 8.1 image from 2019[0], using a kernel that doesn't even try to match upstream, also last touched in 2019[1]. Now, they ship an official Debian image, which is super cool! Of course, it still uses the same ancient out-of-tree kernel, and they somehow managed to ship an official image with apt broken. To reiterate: This is the best software officially available for that device, which they are still selling for $680. Okay, so forget the vendor; maybe others have filled in its failures? Well... XDA is dead [2], and PMOS is doing better but the device is still mostly broken[3] and running the same ancient kernel[4]. So: Having owned a Gemini, I decided that unless I had some specific reason to think the situation was going to be better, I wasn't going to waste money on another Planet Computers product. And to your general question, AFAIK this is the reason in general why Pine and Librem as such a big deal: The software doesn't suck; you have an actual hope for getting updates and things working nicely. Hallium might let you use something better than Android, but it still kinda sucks because it just lets you bolt a nicer userspace to the awful base that the vendors ship. [0] https://support.planetcom.co.uk/index.php/Gemini_Firmware https://support.planetcom.co.uk/index.php/Gemini_Firmware [1] https://github.com/dguidipc/gemini-android-kernel-3.18 https://github.com/dguidipc/gemini-android-kernel-3.18 [2] https://forum.xda-developers.com/f/planet-gemini-pda-roms-kernels-recoveries-oth.7557/ https://forum.xda-developers.com/f/planet-gemini-pda-roms-ke... [3] https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Planet_Computers_Gemini_PDA_(planet-geminipda) https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Planet_Computers_Gemini_P... [4] https://gitlab.com/postmarketOS/pmaports/-/blob/master/device/testing/linux-planet-geminipda/APKBUILD https://gitlab.com/postmarketOS/pmaports/-/blob/master/devic...

GhettoComputers 5y ago
Thanks for the info, I don't care about old kernels but apt that does't work is really ridiculous, the kernel is much older than I thought it would be. >The software doesn't suck; you have an actual hope for getting updates and things working nicely. I would also say this is also not true, the software sucks, the hope of getting things working nicely is the same as hoping an device sold with outdated chromebook hardware sold as a new device from a linux hardware seller that sold them without a functional operating system will work with today's modern applications.

AndroidKitKat 5y ago

I bought a OnePlus 6 for this exact reason. I think a OnePlus 5(t) would work better since the notch gets in the way on the 6(t)!

GhettoComputers 5y ago
How do you like it?

vlmutolo 5y ago

Keep an eye out for the Pinephone Pro. https://www.pine64.org/pinephonepro/ https://www.pine64.org/pinephonepro/ It's still not crazy-fast, but it's definitely more competitive than the original PinePhone. > Rockchip RK3399S 64bit SoC – 2x A72 and 4x A53 CPU cores @ 1.5GHz > ARM Mali T860 4x core GPU @ 500MHz > 4GB LPDDR4 @ 800MHz > 128GB eMMC flash storage > Optional micro SD card (SDXC up-to 2TB) > 6″ 1440 x 720 in-cell IPS with Gorilla Glass 4™ > 3MP Sony IMX258 main camera > 5MP OmniVision OV5640 front-facing camera > Samsung J7 form-factor 3000mAh > $399

GhettoComputers 5y ago
I mentioned non pine because it’s also very outdated and a terrible price for slightly less weak hardware. You could get a much better android phone for that price though. It’s not competitive for price to performance.
- linmob 5y ago
  Sigh. How could they? Have you ever considered economies of scale and that PINE64 don’t make extra money from preinstalling crapware that tracks you?
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    Yes and I don’t care, I am not buying crappy hardware with “a made for Linux label” that doesn’t work. This is a $400 phone shaped device with an LCD that’s not even 1080 with a weak processor, emmc (an old iPhone 6S used nvme), single camera setup, all because I can’t uninstall apps but somehow know how to install and use mobile Linux. “Linux hardware” has no real world benefits but many more problems. Most people won’t buy it either, and rightfully so. This is why Linux on mobile will never be served by crappy hardware. It isn’t production ready and at best it’ll be really competitive for phones from 2015. I could at least expect a working phone, but I doubt they can install spyware when they can’t create an OS.
    - reginold 5y ago

freemint 5y ago

HP Touchpad

maheart 5y ago

SailfishOS is officially supported on a number of different Sony mobiles (e.g. X, XA2 range, 10 and 10 II ranges). All these devices continue to receive updates. SailfishOS is not completely FLOSS, but it's real Linux, and it's polished enough to be a daily driver (I've been using it for 7 years).

pengo 5y ago
I'm now into my third year with Sailfish as my daily driver (Sony Xperia XA2 Plus) and can confirm it's first rate. And if you need an app that doesn't have a native Sailfish version, it'll almost certainly run the Android equivalent.
GhettoComputers 5y ago
Wow it looks great, I had no idea it existed in a usable state. I though it was just the bones of Meego, I used Moblin on an N800, it was great sat the tine, it looks like a truly functional experience.
pengaru 5y ago
I daily drove an N9 when it was current hardware, and it was reasonably good. Harmattan was buggy as hell, but it held promise. However, I found it extremely disappointing that they didn't cater to the FOSS community by making it easy to reproduce and iterate on the OS. If Nokia with the N9 took an approach to the OS and community akin to what Pine64 has been doing with the Pinephone, we would be in a very different place today with Linux phones.
- sicelo 5y ago
  Pine64 doesn't do any software, so the comparison is apples to oranges :-) The software from the N9 became what today is SailfishOS (mostly FOSS, but UI closed), and for something fully FOSS, Nemo is also derived from Harmattan, https://nemomobile.net/ https://nemomobile.net/
  - pengaru 5y ago
    > Pine64 doesn't do any software, so the comparison is apples to oranges :-) True, but Pine64 facilitates the FOSS community in spades when it comes to shipping a hardware profile with mainline support, and ensuring it's trivial for Pinephone users to run alternative operating systems down to the boot loader. I'm a developer and the N9 was completely opaque, it would have required spending significant time just to even begin figuring out how to replace the OS.

sandreas 5y ago

Maybe an alternative: Xiaomi Mi A2 with CalyxOS (https://calyxos.org/ https://calyxos.org/)

flas9sd 5y ago

the Redmi 2 is a Qualcomm msm8916 device. That SoC is already well mainlined, for anybody wanting to get an idea about mobile linux, pick a phone of that SoC class (most manufacturers had them) because they're the cheapest at ~30 bucks. It will not be very performant (feels like I/O mostly), but still impressive using phosh for the first time in this formfactor.

edude03 5y ago

The OnePlus 6/6T on postmarket are pretty close to daily driver ready They're fast, stable, and if you can live without camera, cellular and fast charging, (which yes, I realize means it's more like a tiny tablet than a phone) everything works beautifully. EDIT: Cellular Data works, just not phone calls, so if you have a low latency/reliable 4G connection you could make VoIP work probably :)

linmob 5y ago
This. The OnePlus 6 is a great choice. The Cosmo.. not so much. The available Debian is just broken at this point and has not been maintained for a while.
h4waii 5y ago
I really hope HN never changes, so rare to see see something so true, yet insane to the average person at the same time. This OS on a phone is "close to daily driver" and yet phone calls don't work. I mean this not as a slight, I'm a huge fan of Linux on mobile devices, using them since Maemo, Moblin, webOS, SailfishOS, Jolla, and now postmarket and Pine.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  I don’t think it’s unusual to say you can have calls on iPad with google voice or FT, or to assume people actually use phones for calls anymore. I use only VOIP applications and I wouldn’t have calling if it wasn’t cheaper to have a plan with calling with unlimited data.
- edude03 5y ago
  > so rare to see see something so true, yet insane to the average person at the same time. People here definitely tend not to be average, myself included. However, I think for the "average" HN user, it's at the point where you could make it work if you wanted to. For the global average user, it's not "technically" far off, just practically since most apps are only for iOS and Android, so even with perfect hardware support the OP6/6T or really any mainline kernel linux device wouldn't be a good fit.

lgrialn 5y ago

What I had read was that Cosmo used Mediatek, who was hostile to openness.

GhettoComputers 5y ago
That is a lie, most mobile arm processors are hostile. Mediatek contributes to the Linux kernel, and it isn’t a recent change. I don’t think they’re worst than any other mobile chip manufacturer. https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Mediatek-MT8192-APU-Driver https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Mediatek... They are the easiest to root on Android too. https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/amazing-temp-root-for-mediatek-armv8-2020-08-24.3922213/ https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/amazing-temp-root-for-med...

sicelo 5y ago

Nokia N900 Motorola Droid 4 For these two, see https://maemo-leste.github.io/ https://maemo-leste.github.io/ You can text and use gps on both of them, as well as make voice calls on the Motorola Droid 4 (calls work on N900, but you need complex audio routing and audio filtering. If anyone has experience with Linux audio, the project will appreciate their assistance) Yes, they both have non-free PowerVR GPU, but its blobs work on Linux mainline, at least

GhettoComputers 5y ago
Too bad about the CDMA network stuff and 3G, it doesn’t seem like it’ll be usable anymore. If VOIP works I think the calling issue can be mitigated.
- sicelo 5y ago
  3G is still working where I live, and will be, for quite some time :-) And yes, VoIP works (if you install a VoIP application), so that's a non-issue.
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    That's good and bad haha, 3G was terrible. I agree with VoIP, I don't use regular calls anymore. Its amazing that the N900 is still being supported. What do you use these devices for? It seems like you'd have to disable javascript to browse with that ram amount, have to buy expensive replacement batteries or outdated OEM, and make a lot of tradeoffs. What keeps you using them over a newer one or a postmarketOS supported one? I love having control over my hardware, but I am less willing to trade off performance, I will root or jailbreak a phone and use it for 4 years or so, still love my 2012 S3 with root and 2GB ram though!

seba_dos1 5y ago

> I think there is too much bias and assumptions that only those 2 are "Linux phones". And there's a good reason for that. I'm in mobile GNU/Linux space since 2008 when I got my Neo Freerunner and I've been involved in many mobile GNU/Linux projects since, so I've seen plenty of approaches being tried and tested. postmarketOS has made amazing progress, but it would be nowhere near as far as it is right now without native devices which facilitated software progress the most (even inside postmarketOS itself). Why? Porting is always a game of catch-up which more often than not gets abandoned before getting complete as people move to more recent devices and the cycle starts anew. In contrast, devices like Librem 5 or PinePhone (and Freerunner or to some extent even N900 in the past) offer either a good support from the start, or at least a clear maintainable path forward for things that don't work yet, which is something you don't get at all when you have to rely on bits of Android infrastructure. It isn't a coincidence that there are only two phones in the "main" category of postmarketOS-supported devices: https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices

GhettoComputers 5y ago
Do either work as a daily phone for the owners? A Linux desktop can’t even run ARM android apps, yet it’s expected outdated ARM hardware will. You say you’re been in GNU/Linux on mobile but assert PMOS didn’t have significant progress, had other running phones way before like the Nexus 5 and assert these new phones were the drivers of progress, what evidence is there they didn’t just drain resources from other projects?
- seba_dos1 5y ago
  I'm using a Librem 5 with PureOS as my daily driver. I can even run the Android app of my bank there, although I have to admit that this part can be wonky (but to be honest, that's not a big deal to me). Before that, I'd been using Nokia N900 for many years after switching from Openmoko Neo Freerunner, which I'd been using for something around 2 or 3 years. Actually, I still keep my N900 around as a backup. I remember when postmarketOS has been created, but that was already pretty late in my book :) You completely forget about earlier porting pioneers, such as SHR that worked on devices like HTC Dream, Nexus S or Palm Pre (and GTA01/02/04, obviously); or even projects that predate my personal involvement, like OpenEZX. We've seen it happening multiple times by now, so there's a lot of insight to take from that already. > had other running phones way before like the Nexus 5 It is pretty clear that you haven't actually used pmOS back then (2017-18), as none of the supported devices could even do phone calls there, and that was far from the only missing basic feature. Which DE would you even run on it for daily usage, Hildon? ;) It sure was an amazing project with a lot of promise already, but absolutely nowhere near being actually usable (aside of some PDA-like use cases). Back then the only linuxy OS that you could actually use on some real-world devices (not counting proprietary ones like Sailfish or already obsolete ones like SHR) was Ubuntu Touch, which was pretty far from the regular desktop architecture (still is and doesn't intend to change that) that's pitched by distros like pmOS, PureOS or Mobian. Things started to move with the advent of Librem 5 (2018) and PinePhone (2020), thanks to Purism investing resources into creating phosh and maintaining supporting infrastructure in GNOME, and Plasma Mobile experiencing an influx of new developers and moving away from Hybris when PinePhone started to become widely available. That work is now directly consumed by ports of pmOS to other devices as well. > what evidence is there they didn’t just drain resources from other projects So, considering all I said above - which other projects? Distros like postmarketOS have been fueled by L5 and PP, not drained. Work on mobile GNOME has been paid for with Librem 5's price. Plasma Mobile was a tech demo until more people started to hack it on the PinePhone. This should be evident to anyone who actually watched that space unfold across the last 15 years. These days we can even start hoping for working phone calls on ported devices like OnePlus 6T, but where do you think the ModemManager code to handle phone calls actually came from? ;]