3 ms·

Of course I am familiar with Microsoft's history with IE and perhaps this will be a bit controversial but I believe the EU got this one partially wrong. They co

Of course I am familiar with Microsoft's history with IE and perhaps this will be a bit controversial but I believe the EU got this one partially wrong. They could have simply forced Microsoft to allow IE to be uninstalled without also forcing them to ship a version of Windows without a browser altogether. After all, if you're okay with banning IE and OneDrive from being pre-installed where does the slippery slope end? What stops the exact same argument from being applied to every single other application that ships with an operating system? Now you've banned solitaire, paint, file explorer, media player, photo viewer, pdf viewer, disk defragger, etc. etc. and created a crippled operating system that forces the user to hunt down and install all these third-party applications to get functionality that should have been included in the first place. Is the end user really better off under such a scenario? Not in my opinion.

owisd 5y ago
> where does the slippery slope end Should have to convince a judge that bundling the particular application is causing a distorting effect on the market. The complainants might have a case for OneDrive, but seems much more unlikely the video game industry would have a case for solitaire.
- nodamage 5y ago
  > but seems much more unlikely the video game industry would have a case for solitaire. Based on what? It seems entirely plausible that the developer of a solitaire game could make the exact same argument that Microsoft shipping a free version of solitaire with Windows makes it impossible to complete against them, and therefore (under the same logic applied to OneDrive) solitaire should be banned from Windows in order to ensure a "level playing field".
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    Perhaps OS vendors should ship platform tooling, such as to make games easier to make. Not shipping games and apps themselves. Like stable APIs for file sync, calendars, contacts, gaming, common hardware, etc.
  - owisd 5y ago
    Good point although it’s more convincing me that maybe more of the seemingly trivial applications should be unbundled. I was imagining since consumers buy multiple games and games developers typically produce multiple games the overall effect on the games market would be more limited so at some point it’s not worth taking it to court.
  - piaste 5y ago
    I think that the network effect / ecosystem considerations are the meaningful discriminator here. MS didn't create and ship IE as a freebie gift to its customers; it did it in order to gain a foothold into the burgeoning Internet service market. Likewise with office products and cloud storage, having all Windows users automatically use .doc files and OneDrive accounts puts them in a dominant position to sell other connected products. A Windows user who plays solitaire is just playing solitaire. If he would like to play a better third party solitaire instead, the fact that 99.99% of Windows users are playing the default version doesn't affect him in the slightest. But a Netscape-browsing, StarOffice-typing, Nextcloud-uploading Windows user will find himself constantly annoyed in a world where every website is Best Viewed in IE, ships heavily customized Word documents, and shares OneDrive links with each other. If Solitaire were a MMO, I think Windows giving every user a free basic Solitaire account would not be OK.
- s17n 5y ago
  Why not? Bundled solitaire surely has a significant impact on third party solitaire games.
adriancr 5y ago
> Now you've banned solitaire, paint, file explorer, media player, photo viewer, pdf viewer, disk defragger, etc. etc. Good?, I would like to see a bare bones windows version that I can just use for games that work only on windows. Right now all I see is added bloat/spyware with no way to disable it as such I'm not using it. If other people want the 'complete' version - just buy the complete version. That's personal preference, I don't see something wrong with your slippery slope. Still, the main argument is Microsoft using their market dominance/operating system control to destroy alternatives which is the case here and was the case with internet explorer and office. It's nice to have operating system provide custom APIs just for your applications while closing competitors out.
- nodamage 5y ago
  Sorry but shipping a crippled operating system at the expense of 99% of users that don't want to dig around and install two dozen utilities to make their computer usable is not good. If you want to argue that anything pre-installed should be removable, that's fine, I agree with that. But arguing that an operating system shouldn't be allowed to pre-bundle basic utilities to play videos, view photos, and unzip files is completely absurd.
  - Nevermark 5y ago
    If they can ship bare operating systems and bundled versions, as the purchaser requests, it would be useful to many people and for many use cases. I would be more interested in a bare bones Windows personally/professionally. Whether it created a wider market for the basic apps I don't know. But it wouldn't hurt it. I don't know where the line should be drawn, but giving purchasers the choice seems like a good principle to apply wherever it is drawn.

owisd 5y ago

> where does the slippery slope end Should have to convince a judge that bundling the particular application is causing a distorting effect on the market. The complainants might have a case for OneDrive, but seems much more unlikely the video game industry would have a case for solitaire.

nodamage 5y ago
> but seems much more unlikely the video game industry would have a case for solitaire. Based on what? It seems entirely plausible that the developer of a solitaire game could make the exact same argument that Microsoft shipping a free version of solitaire with Windows makes it impossible to complete against them, and therefore (under the same logic applied to OneDrive) solitaire should be banned from Windows in order to ensure a "level playing field".
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  Perhaps OS vendors should ship platform tooling, such as to make games easier to make. Not shipping games and apps themselves. Like stable APIs for file sync, calendars, contacts, gaming, common hardware, etc.
- owisd 5y ago
  Good point although it’s more convincing me that maybe more of the seemingly trivial applications should be unbundled. I was imagining since consumers buy multiple games and games developers typically produce multiple games the overall effect on the games market would be more limited so at some point it’s not worth taking it to court.
- piaste 5y ago
  I think that the network effect / ecosystem considerations are the meaningful discriminator here. MS didn't create and ship IE as a freebie gift to its customers; it did it in order to gain a foothold into the burgeoning Internet service market. Likewise with office products and cloud storage, having all Windows users automatically use .doc files and OneDrive accounts puts them in a dominant position to sell other connected products. A Windows user who plays solitaire is just playing solitaire. If he would like to play a better third party solitaire instead, the fact that 99.99% of Windows users are playing the default version doesn't affect him in the slightest. But a Netscape-browsing, StarOffice-typing, Nextcloud-uploading Windows user will find himself constantly annoyed in a world where every website is Best Viewed in IE, ships heavily customized Word documents, and shares OneDrive links with each other. If Solitaire were a MMO, I think Windows giving every user a free basic Solitaire account would not be OK.
s17n 5y ago
Why not? Bundled solitaire surely has a significant impact on third party solitaire games.

adriancr 5y ago

> Now you've banned solitaire, paint, file explorer, media player, photo viewer, pdf viewer, disk defragger, etc. etc. Good?, I would like to see a bare bones windows version that I can just use for games that work only on windows. Right now all I see is added bloat/spyware with no way to disable it as such I'm not using it. If other people want the 'complete' version - just buy the complete version. That's personal preference, I don't see something wrong with your slippery slope. Still, the main argument is Microsoft using their market dominance/operating system control to destroy alternatives which is the case here and was the case with internet explorer and office. It's nice to have operating system provide custom APIs just for your applications while closing competitors out.

nodamage 5y ago
Sorry but shipping a crippled operating system at the expense of 99% of users that don't want to dig around and install two dozen utilities to make their computer usable is not good. If you want to argue that anything pre-installed should be removable, that's fine, I agree with that. But arguing that an operating system shouldn't be allowed to pre-bundle basic utilities to play videos, view photos, and unzip files is completely absurd.
- Nevermark 5y ago
  If they can ship bare operating systems and bundled versions, as the purchaser requests, it would be useful to many people and for many use cases. I would be more interested in a bare bones Windows personally/professionally. Whether it created a wider market for the basic apps I don't know. But it wouldn't hurt it. I don't know where the line should be drawn, but giving purchasers the choice seems like a good principle to apply wherever it is drawn.