4 ms·

A good friend of mine moved from Germany to the US. He's got some grumblings about the social issues in the US (homelessness, public transit, dirtiness in citie

A good friend of mine moved from Germany to the US. He's got some grumblings about the social issues in the US (homelessness, public transit, dirtiness in cities, etc.) but seems happy overall. His income roughly tripled and he's not even at FAANG.

OJFord 5y ago
3x income is nice, but what about expenses? Groceries, utilities, and taxes all seem to cost a lot more in North America, not to mention health insurance in the USA.
- anamexis 5y ago
  Health insurance is nearly always paid by the employer. And aren't US taxes quite low compared to much of Europe?
  - beagle3 5y ago
    Depending on the tax bracket and the state, they might or might not be. At the top tax bracket in NYC or CA, you have iirc 35% federal + 13% state so almost 50%, and that’s not all of it (there’s payroll tax, social security etc). Products in the US are cheap, but services are expensive, and healthcare is tied to your employer. My impression is that if you’re young, healthy and without children, the US is much cheaper. But e.g. putting a kid through college is $200k in the US vs free in the EU.
    - marcinzm 5y ago
      >Depending on the tax bracket and the state, they might or might not be. I looked it up for Germany. Let's say you make $400k married with children sole income earner. In Germany your tax comes out to 41%. In NYC it comes out to 34%. Not sure if Germany has the same number of deductions and loopholes as US taxes. If it doesn't then the US one would be even lower due to those. >But e.g. putting a kid through college is $200k in the US vs free in the EU. There are cheaper state schools which can be rather good but in general yeah. That said when the post-tax income is $150k more in the US versus Europe the $50k/year for college isn't that much.
  - OJFord 5y ago
    > And aren't US taxes quite low compared to much of Europe? Maybe if you go through the pain of having 'do taxes' be something you have to do, maximise your 'deductions', and look only at income/sales tax, neglecting tax-advantaged savings vehicles & home ownership.
    - marcinzm 5y ago
      >pain of having 'do taxes' be something you have to do You mean pay someone $300 and send them a bunch of forms that you download from various websites?
      - OJFord 5y ago
        I have no idea, I don't have to do anything like that thankfully.
- marcinzm 5y ago
  >Groceries >utilities From what I can tell these might cost 25% more in the US than Germany but that's such a drop in the bucket compared to engineer salaries it's irrelevant. These also vary drastically based on the location you're living since the US is a fairly massive country. >taxes The US has generally lower taxes. Sales tax is 0-8% depending on the state versus 15-27% for VAT. From what I can tell the average German workers has a tax rate of 39%. In the US it's 22%. Obviously tax brackets, state taxes and so on come into account but in general the US will have lower tax rates for the same income. >health insurance Covered by your employer and will be quiet nice at any decent company. The paperwork is the biggest pain point to be honest and it's convoluted sometimes. Even if it's a crappy plan the total cost to cover a family might be $10k a year worst case. Given the salaries that's a fairly minor cost and at a decent company would be much lower.
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  I dunno about that, electricity is expensive in Germany compared to the US. Internet is more expensive, but nowhere near 3x. Groceries can be worse, discount groceries aren’t as common in the states, but if you specifically seek out cheaper grocery places it’s not too much worse imo. Taxes generally aren’t worse, though this depends on specific region. NYC might be worse, while Seattle is better. And there’s stuff that’s cheaper in the US. Almost anything that comes out of a factory is like 10-20% less, like electronics, partially due to VAT vs sales tax. Ditto for media stuff like streaming subscriptions or Steam games.
- nautilius 5y ago
  Having kids or not will make a huge difference in that calculation. Childcare, excellent public schools, and college that cost a couple hundred Euros easily cost tens of thousands in the U.S. Also, internet & phones: I have friends who keep their French cell phone contract because even though used from the States it is still much cheaper than any local contract. Internet is mostly a monopoly in the U.S., resulting in easily 5x European prices at much worse performance and service.

OJFord 5y ago

3x income is nice, but what about expenses? Groceries, utilities, and taxes all seem to cost a lot more in North America, not to mention health insurance in the USA.

anamexis 5y ago
Health insurance is nearly always paid by the employer. And aren't US taxes quite low compared to much of Europe?
- beagle3 5y ago
  Depending on the tax bracket and the state, they might or might not be. At the top tax bracket in NYC or CA, you have iirc 35% federal + 13% state so almost 50%, and that’s not all of it (there’s payroll tax, social security etc). Products in the US are cheap, but services are expensive, and healthcare is tied to your employer. My impression is that if you’re young, healthy and without children, the US is much cheaper. But e.g. putting a kid through college is $200k in the US vs free in the EU.
  - marcinzm 5y ago
    >Depending on the tax bracket and the state, they might or might not be. I looked it up for Germany. Let's say you make $400k married with children sole income earner. In Germany your tax comes out to 41%. In NYC it comes out to 34%. Not sure if Germany has the same number of deductions and loopholes as US taxes. If it doesn't then the US one would be even lower due to those. >But e.g. putting a kid through college is $200k in the US vs free in the EU. There are cheaper state schools which can be rather good but in general yeah. That said when the post-tax income is $150k more in the US versus Europe the $50k/year for college isn't that much.
- OJFord 5y ago
  > And aren't US taxes quite low compared to much of Europe? Maybe if you go through the pain of having 'do taxes' be something you have to do, maximise your 'deductions', and look only at income/sales tax, neglecting tax-advantaged savings vehicles & home ownership.
  - marcinzm 5y ago
    >pain of having 'do taxes' be something you have to do You mean pay someone $300 and send them a bunch of forms that you download from various websites?
    - OJFord 5y ago
      I have no idea, I don't have to do anything like that thankfully.
marcinzm 5y ago
>Groceries >utilities From what I can tell these might cost 25% more in the US than Germany but that's such a drop in the bucket compared to engineer salaries it's irrelevant. These also vary drastically based on the location you're living since the US is a fairly massive country. >taxes The US has generally lower taxes. Sales tax is 0-8% depending on the state versus 15-27% for VAT. From what I can tell the average German workers has a tax rate of 39%. In the US it's 22%. Obviously tax brackets, state taxes and so on come into account but in general the US will have lower tax rates for the same income. >health insurance Covered by your employer and will be quiet nice at any decent company. The paperwork is the biggest pain point to be honest and it's convoluted sometimes. Even if it's a crappy plan the total cost to cover a family might be $10k a year worst case. Given the salaries that's a fairly minor cost and at a decent company would be much lower.
TulliusCicero 5y ago
I dunno about that, electricity is expensive in Germany compared to the US. Internet is more expensive, but nowhere near 3x. Groceries can be worse, discount groceries aren’t as common in the states, but if you specifically seek out cheaper grocery places it’s not too much worse imo. Taxes generally aren’t worse, though this depends on specific region. NYC might be worse, while Seattle is better. And there’s stuff that’s cheaper in the US. Almost anything that comes out of a factory is like 10-20% less, like electronics, partially due to VAT vs sales tax. Ditto for media stuff like streaming subscriptions or Steam games.
nautilius 5y ago
Having kids or not will make a huge difference in that calculation. Childcare, excellent public schools, and college that cost a couple hundred Euros easily cost tens of thousands in the U.S. Also, internet & phones: I have friends who keep their French cell phone contract because even though used from the States it is still much cheaper than any local contract. Internet is mostly a monopoly in the U.S., resulting in easily 5x European prices at much worse performance and service.