4 ms·

If they can’t afford to staff for 24x7 operation and maintain profitability that’s their problem. They should either reduce their service hours or charge more.

If they can’t afford to staff for 24x7 operation and maintain profitability that’s their problem. They should either reduce their service hours or charge more. By working for free you’re subsidizing your organization’s unsustainable business model.

lightbendover 5y ago
Getting paid 200k+ for a job that had on-call as part of stated duties (and thus baked into the comp) prior to accepting the offer is now working for free? There is hyperbole and then there is whatever this is. Don’t like it, quit and find a company that is moving slowly and doesn’t value ownership from engineers, someone else will fill in the vacant post. Sounds like a reasonably sustainable business model to me, especially since it has worked like this for over decades at some companies.
- Invictus0 5y ago
  Amazing to see all these awful takes. This _is_ America I suppose.
- YZF 5y ago
  There are plenty of jobs in good companies that pay well and don't require you to be a slave to your job. Companies that can move fast and treat their employees well vs. companies that exploit their employees. I am a manager in such a company and my team can move fast and own stuff during the work day and then relax on their weekend so they can get back to moving fast and owning stuff when they're back at work. This has totally not been this way for decades. Now if you're a founder, or you're being paid for this extra work or own a significant part of the business and benefit from it's success, that's a little bit different.
- Retric 5y ago
  How many IT people on call are actually making 200+k? The general rule I have seen is people on call get paid less as people eventually negotiate very slightly lower salaries for not being on call.
  - flippantdev 5y ago
    I make well over $200k with bonuses and equity. I am on call right now. I just DoorDashed lobster tail. Life is so unfair.
- hackernews777 5y ago
  You realize this isn't just a 200K programmer problem ? People getting paid 60K to do IT support (or other support for various operations systems) also get roped into the same exact on-call duty. (Often this not advertised either...) It's growing problem from penny pinching tech companies that want to tout 24/7 support without paying for 24/7 support.
- spaetzleesser 5y ago
  "Getting paid 200k+ for a job that had on-call as part of stated duties (and thus baked into the comp) prior to accepting the offer is now working for free? There is hyperbole and then there is whatever this is." The lawyers at my company go home at 5 and make way more. I know a doctor who gets paid somewhere around $1500 for every day he is on call. And when they actually call him he makes even more.
  - listenallyall 5y ago
    You're likely very wrong about the lawyers. They leave at 5 when nothing is urgent. But in certain crisis situations -- company being bought out, a severe injury occurred on premises, a client is suing you, etc -- those lawyers will be expected to respond 24/7 all through a full weekend or beyond. Of course, you can still go to law school if you're really that jealous.
jsolson 5y ago
Below a certain level I mostly agree with you. One company in my past didn't work this way, and one too many pages in the middle of the night for a business I wasn't personally invested in made it an easy job to walk away from. That said, there is a level of seniority at which "their problem" is "your problem." If you'd chuck the business out the door rather than getting paged a few times a year, you're not ready for that level yet. This varies by company and organization size, but fundamentally you can't (and shouldn't try to) anticipate everything up front. Sometimes you need the knowledge, judgement, or simply signing authority (literal or metaphorical) of someone specific.
- lovecg 5y ago
  > That said, there is a level of seniority at which "their problem" is "your problem.” I’ve long decided that unless I have the significant stock options to show for it it’s delusional. It’s what the company wants you to think: to have all the emotional investment and none of the actual ownership benefits.
- ghaff 5y ago
  One can debate the title/comp level where this change happens but, certainly, at some executive level it's reasonable to expect to be contacted off-hours if there's some customer/PR/facility/etc. crisis. That's not to say an exec can never be out of touch; a friend told me that their former CEO had a new communications head quit because they couldn't deal with said CEO telling them that they should just deal with PR issues if he was on vacation.But, above a certain level, traveling on the weekend, being away nights, late night calls, and yes the occasional "Houston, we have a problem" moment happen.

lightbendover 5y ago

Getting paid 200k+ for a job that had on-call as part of stated duties (and thus baked into the comp) prior to accepting the offer is now working for free? There is hyperbole and then there is whatever this is. Don’t like it, quit and find a company that is moving slowly and doesn’t value ownership from engineers, someone else will fill in the vacant post. Sounds like a reasonably sustainable business model to me, especially since it has worked like this for over decades at some companies.

Invictus0 5y ago
Amazing to see all these awful takes. This _is_ America I suppose.
YZF 5y ago
There are plenty of jobs in good companies that pay well and don't require you to be a slave to your job. Companies that can move fast and treat their employees well vs. companies that exploit their employees. I am a manager in such a company and my team can move fast and own stuff during the work day and then relax on their weekend so they can get back to moving fast and owning stuff when they're back at work. This has totally not been this way for decades. Now if you're a founder, or you're being paid for this extra work or own a significant part of the business and benefit from it's success, that's a little bit different.
Retric 5y ago
How many IT people on call are actually making 200+k? The general rule I have seen is people on call get paid less as people eventually negotiate very slightly lower salaries for not being on call.
- flippantdev 5y ago
  I make well over $200k with bonuses and equity. I am on call right now. I just DoorDashed lobster tail. Life is so unfair.
hackernews777 5y ago
You realize this isn't just a 200K programmer problem ? People getting paid 60K to do IT support (or other support for various operations systems) also get roped into the same exact on-call duty. (Often this not advertised either...) It's growing problem from penny pinching tech companies that want to tout 24/7 support without paying for 24/7 support.
spaetzleesser 5y ago
"Getting paid 200k+ for a job that had on-call as part of stated duties (and thus baked into the comp) prior to accepting the offer is now working for free? There is hyperbole and then there is whatever this is." The lawyers at my company go home at 5 and make way more. I know a doctor who gets paid somewhere around $1500 for every day he is on call. And when they actually call him he makes even more.
- listenallyall 5y ago
  You're likely very wrong about the lawyers. They leave at 5 when nothing is urgent. But in certain crisis situations -- company being bought out, a severe injury occurred on premises, a client is suing you, etc -- those lawyers will be expected to respond 24/7 all through a full weekend or beyond. Of course, you can still go to law school if you're really that jealous.

jsolson 5y ago

Below a certain level I mostly agree with you. One company in my past didn't work this way, and one too many pages in the middle of the night for a business I wasn't personally invested in made it an easy job to walk away from. That said, there is a level of seniority at which "their problem" is "your problem." If you'd chuck the business out the door rather than getting paged a few times a year, you're not ready for that level yet. This varies by company and organization size, but fundamentally you can't (and shouldn't try to) anticipate everything up front. Sometimes you need the knowledge, judgement, or simply signing authority (literal or metaphorical) of someone specific.

lovecg 5y ago
> That said, there is a level of seniority at which "their problem" is "your problem.” I’ve long decided that unless I have the significant stock options to show for it it’s delusional. It’s what the company wants you to think: to have all the emotional investment and none of the actual ownership benefits.
ghaff 5y ago
One can debate the title/comp level where this change happens but, certainly, at some executive level it's reasonable to expect to be contacted off-hours if there's some customer/PR/facility/etc. crisis. That's not to say an exec can never be out of touch; a friend told me that their former CEO had a new communications head quit because they couldn't deal with said CEO telling them that they should just deal with PR issues if he was on vacation.But, above a certain level, traveling on the weekend, being away nights, late night calls, and yes the occasional "Houston, we have a problem" moment happen.