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Gold Coins: The Mystery of the Double Eagle

65 points by winanga 15y ago

qxb 15y ago
Here's a single page version: http://www.businessweek.com/printer/magazine/gold-coins-the-mystery-of-the-double-eagle-08252011.html http://www.businessweek.com/printer/magazine/gold-coins-the-...
CurtHagenlocher 15y ago
I kept waiting for them to say something about Isaac Newton...
delinka 15y ago
I still don't understand why the U.S. government should care. If they were being circulated as currency, it would make sense. But the metal in the coins is worth many many times their face value. It'd be ludicrous for a holder of a double eagle coin to spend it as $20.
- bena 15y ago
  Basically, all Double Eagles not in the government's possession are stolen property.
  - wofser 15y ago
    There are at least 1 legally owned by a private person according to the wikipedia article. Nice insurance. Everyone else that say they have that coin gets zonked by the USA.
  - rudiger 15y ago
    Not all of them. A 1933 Double Eagle coin was legally auctioned, and an additional $20 was needed to “monetize” the face value of the coin so it would become legal currency.
    - larrik 15y ago
      I believe the government's position is that one coin was also stolen property, which they then dealt with in a special way, given the circumstances. More importantly, the government believes the 10 coins the article is really about were stolen by the family who currently is trying to get them back. A huge difference to the original case of the single coin.
- sneak 15y ago
  It's a cops and principle thing. It's "because I said so" authoritarianism of the highest order. Rationally, they shouldn't care at all, but available evidence strongly suggests that the business of drafting, passing, and enforcing laws has very little to do with rationality.
  - rudiger 15y ago
    They care because the coins were never issued. They were stolen. Even when a 1933 Double Eagle coin was legally auctioned, an additional $20 was needed to “monetize” the face value of the coin so it would become legal currency.
    - maaku 15y ago
      If you make it to page 5, there's a note that these coins might have been issued by the Mint, officially but not legally. There's a brief window of time after FDR's gold recall order that tellers at the Mint were trading gold coins for the recalled bullion. It is entirely conceivable that some 1933 double eagles might have been issued as change.
    - delinka 15y ago
      If it's true that they were stolen, then we're beyond the statute of limitations for obtaining criminal justice. Now we're back to the feds attempting to recover the property of Uncle Sam and it's a pittance of gold. No longer worth the effort. Edit: I think I fat fingered the wrong reply link. It's not worth it to move the comment.
      - jahmed 15y ago
        IANAL but I would assume the Government's argument would be that the crime is ongoing and that after becoming aware of the coins they made efforts to recover the property. It is a pittance of gold but thats not the point. The Mint believes these coins were misappropriated and it's their duty to secure the money supply. If I were the Government I would offer $20 per coin, as thats the face value of the coins. Although that might not be possible if that technically monetizes them into legal tender.
woodall 15y ago
Here is the Wikipedia article, I like the pictures, if anyone is interested; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1933_Double_Eagle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1933_Double_Eagle and more on the trial, which ended this year, here; http://www.coinworld.com/articles/1933-double-eagle-trial-at-long-last-a-conclu/ http://www.coinworld.com/articles/1933-double-eagle-trial-at...
rudiger 15y ago
Is there any qualitative difference (eg. a unique design beyond the "1933" year) between the 1933 Double Eagle coin and the coins from previous years? Obviously, an interesting story makes these worth so much more.
- larrik 15y ago
  You mean like the fact that the 1933 coins were never issued? I think "this coin shouldn't exist" qualifies as a bit more than "an interesting story."
- pmiller2 15y ago
  No. They are exactly the same design as coins minted 1908-1932 (1907 was a special case, having two different designs, only one of which continued on).
ck2 15y ago
How much taxpayer money has been wasted over the past 50+ years over this nonsense. Flights, security, agent hours, overtime, pensions, etc. just to pursue this nonsense. Anyone could think of a dozen ways the money could have been better spent, but I guess every level of cops need their own little agenda to abuse to feel important. I say if anyone happens to have one, let them sell it and instead charge a 40% tax rate on the selling price.
- kwantam 15y ago
  Don't you understand, if the government doesn't spend huge sums recovering these coins our currency will be devalued. I mean, devalued more. Because, you know, quantitative easing, and all that. More seriously: I want to know how the hell you find a jury who will actually support the government stealing heirlooms from an 82-year-old woman's safety deposit box.

65 points by winanga 15y ago

qxb 15y ago

Here's a single page version: http://www.businessweek.com/printer/magazine/gold-coins-the-mystery-of-the-double-eagle-08252011.html http://www.businessweek.com/printer/magazine/gold-coins-the-...

CurtHagenlocher 15y ago

I kept waiting for them to say something about Isaac Newton...

delinka 15y ago

I still don't understand why the U.S. government should care. If they were being circulated as currency, it would make sense. But the metal in the coins is worth many many times their face value. It'd be ludicrous for a holder of a double eagle coin to spend it as $20.

bena 15y ago
Basically, all Double Eagles not in the government's possession are stolen property.
- wofser 15y ago
  There are at least 1 legally owned by a private person according to the wikipedia article. Nice insurance. Everyone else that say they have that coin gets zonked by the USA.
- rudiger 15y ago
  Not all of them. A 1933 Double Eagle coin was legally auctioned, and an additional $20 was needed to “monetize” the face value of the coin so it would become legal currency.
  - larrik 15y ago
    I believe the government's position is that one coin was also stolen property, which they then dealt with in a special way, given the circumstances. More importantly, the government believes the 10 coins the article is really about were stolen by the family who currently is trying to get them back. A huge difference to the original case of the single coin.
sneak 15y ago
It's a cops and principle thing. It's "because I said so" authoritarianism of the highest order. Rationally, they shouldn't care at all, but available evidence strongly suggests that the business of drafting, passing, and enforcing laws has very little to do with rationality.
- rudiger 15y ago
  They care because the coins were never issued. They were stolen. Even when a 1933 Double Eagle coin was legally auctioned, an additional $20 was needed to “monetize” the face value of the coin so it would become legal currency.
  - maaku 15y ago
    If you make it to page 5, there's a note that these coins might have been issued by the Mint, officially but not legally. There's a brief window of time after FDR's gold recall order that tellers at the Mint were trading gold coins for the recalled bullion. It is entirely conceivable that some 1933 double eagles might have been issued as change.
  - delinka 15y ago
    If it's true that they were stolen, then we're beyond the statute of limitations for obtaining criminal justice. Now we're back to the feds attempting to recover the property of Uncle Sam and it's a pittance of gold. No longer worth the effort. Edit: I think I fat fingered the wrong reply link. It's not worth it to move the comment.
    - jahmed 15y ago
      IANAL but I would assume the Government's argument would be that the crime is ongoing and that after becoming aware of the coins they made efforts to recover the property. It is a pittance of gold but thats not the point. The Mint believes these coins were misappropriated and it's their duty to secure the money supply. If I were the Government I would offer $20 per coin, as thats the face value of the coins. Although that might not be possible if that technically monetizes them into legal tender.

woodall 15y ago

Here is the Wikipedia article, I like the pictures, if anyone is interested; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1933_Double_Eagle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1933_Double_Eagle and more on the trial, which ended this year, here; http://www.coinworld.com/articles/1933-double-eagle-trial-at-long-last-a-conclu/ http://www.coinworld.com/articles/1933-double-eagle-trial-at...

rudiger 15y ago

Is there any qualitative difference (eg. a unique design beyond the "1933" year) between the 1933 Double Eagle coin and the coins from previous years? Obviously, an interesting story makes these worth so much more.

larrik 15y ago
You mean like the fact that the 1933 coins were never issued? I think "this coin shouldn't exist" qualifies as a bit more than "an interesting story."
pmiller2 15y ago
No. They are exactly the same design as coins minted 1908-1932 (1907 was a special case, having two different designs, only one of which continued on).

ck2 15y ago

How much taxpayer money has been wasted over the past 50+ years over this nonsense. Flights, security, agent hours, overtime, pensions, etc. just to pursue this nonsense. Anyone could think of a dozen ways the money could have been better spent, but I guess every level of cops need their own little agenda to abuse to feel important. I say if anyone happens to have one, let them sell it and instead charge a 40% tax rate on the selling price.

kwantam 15y ago
Don't you understand, if the government doesn't spend huge sums recovering these coins our currency will be devalued. I mean, devalued more. Because, you know, quantitative easing, and all that. More seriously: I want to know how the hell you find a jury who will actually support the government stealing heirlooms from an 82-year-old woman's safety deposit box.