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I mean, from outside of New Zealand that country does look like a "reverse" open-air prison, so to speak. Granted, the policies put in place have resulted in al

I mean, from outside of New Zealand that country does look like a "reverse" open-air prison, so to speak. Granted, the policies put in place have resulted in almost no covid-related deaths, but the reality it is what is, that country is very, very difficult to come back into (or to return), and because of that most of the New Zealanders looked trapped in their own country (at leats that's how it looks to a person like myself who lives more than a half a world away).

cldellow 5y ago
That sounds to me like a reasonable criticism and discussion to have. That wasn't the argument Berenson was putting forth. He was saying that some large number of New Zealanders would be detained indefinitely in congregate settings purpose-built by the government. Again, I wish I could cite the specific things, but I cannot. I was left with the very strong impression that Berenson did not care about facts.
cableshaft 5y ago
Beautiful country to be “trapped” in. Lots of amazing parks and mountains and caves and beaches and volcanos everywhere. I’ve been tempted to “trap” myself there for a couple of decades now. It’s such a prison that billionaires are voluntarily securing land and building mansions in case the whole world goes tits up. Such a terrible place. /s https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/feb/15/why-silicon-valley-billionaires-are-prepping-for-the-apocalypse-in-new-zealand https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/feb/15/why-silicon-val... (Note: I’m aware it’s not some perfect utopia and one of its issues is things can be expensive to live there, especially housing)
- paganel 5y ago
  I didn't say anything about New Zealand being ugly or whatever, I did say that (from my perspective) the freedom of movement of its citizens across the border was severely limited, hence the "prison" term. Yes, I know that (most probably) New Zealanders were perfectly free to go out to another country had they wished to do so, but once there they couldn't have come back (unless they were a multi-billionaire like the Google guy), I regard that as a prison-like system, because it majorly forces you to remain put (most probably your family, your job, your everything are located in New Zealand, you don't want to give them away). Yes, it is a system that saved lives, but nevertheless it is a system that restricted the freedom of movement of its citizens for almost two years now.
  - cableshaft 5y ago
    They've allowed people to leave and come back (not the entire pandemic probably, but most of it), it's just if they come back they have to stay in a quarantine hotel for two weeks, especially if they tested positive for Covid. A quarantine hotel that a bunch of assholes were so fucking impatient that they literally climbed fences and dodged security to escape from just to grab beer or some shit and wasted millions of dollars as New Zealand tried to contact trace everyone they came in contact with and try to keep a spread on it further. When all they had to do was chill in a hotel for two weeks and then they'd be free to do whatever. https://thehill.com/policy/international/asia-pacific/570511-man-facing-charges-after-escaping-quarantine-hotel-in-new https://thehill.com/policy/international/asia-pacific/570511... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/02/new-zealand-police-surround-address-after-covid-positive-man-escapes-quarantine https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/02/new-zealand-po... https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/rest-of-world/man-arrested-after-new-zealand-quarantine-escape/articleshow/85863175.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/rest-of-world/man-... https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-man-escapes-miq-in-middle-of-night-police-told-at-1030am-today/I7BJDJR7U6CJTXW6URQGPZ3VTM/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-man-es... https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/454613/covid-19-two-escape-jet-park-quarantine-person-isolating-at-home-missing https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/454613/covid-19-two-esca... A couple of these might be the same person, I just did a quick google search, but I think I've seen at least a dozen of these stories out of New Zealand over the past year and a half.
jrochkind1 5y ago
What is a "reverse" open-air prison, what part of imprisonment are you suggesting is reversed?
- oxfeed65261 5y ago
  Not the GP, but I believe they mean that it keeps outsiders out rather than keeping insiders in.
  - jrochkind1 5y ago
    I see. It's currently pretty darn hard for most of the world to get into the US, is the US also a "reverse open-air prison", which alarms the poster? Really, it's been almost impossible for the majority of the population of the planet to get into the USA before the pandemic. Most of the world would be thrilled if they could come if they quarantine for two weeks.
  - paganel 5y ago
    That, and the the fear (for lack of a better word) of not going out of the country because getting back in would be impossible. As far as I understand that was the feeling of many of the expats living in Singapore, had they decided to get out of the city they couldn't have come back (and hence they would have lost their lucrative job, most probably).
mdoms 5y ago
I'm NZ born and bred. I oppose our current lockdown situation and think it should have been lifted a long time ago. I think we got extremely lucky in our first wave and I think our government handling of the delta wave (and the lack of preparation in advance of it) is shameful. I am extremely critical of our government and very disturbed by the media's handling of it. I could not be more depressed by the sorry state of our opposition. All of that to to say that describing NZ as a "reverse" open-air prison is so far beyond absurd I don't even know what to say. For one thing, Kiwis are free to leave NZ - perhaps it's Australia you're thinking of, which really did lock its citizens at home under punishment of 5 years in prison or a $66,000 fine[0]? 0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travel_during_the_COVID-19_pandemic#Oceania_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travel_during_the_COVID-19_pan...

cldellow 5y ago

That sounds to me like a reasonable criticism and discussion to have. That wasn't the argument Berenson was putting forth. He was saying that some large number of New Zealanders would be detained indefinitely in congregate settings purpose-built by the government. Again, I wish I could cite the specific things, but I cannot. I was left with the very strong impression that Berenson did not care about facts.

cableshaft 5y ago

Beautiful country to be “trapped” in. Lots of amazing parks and mountains and caves and beaches and volcanos everywhere. I’ve been tempted to “trap” myself there for a couple of decades now. It’s such a prison that billionaires are voluntarily securing land and building mansions in case the whole world goes tits up. Such a terrible place. /s https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/feb/15/why-silicon-valley-billionaires-are-prepping-for-the-apocalypse-in-new-zealand https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/feb/15/why-silicon-val... (Note: I’m aware it’s not some perfect utopia and one of its issues is things can be expensive to live there, especially housing)

paganel 5y ago
I didn't say anything about New Zealand being ugly or whatever, I did say that (from my perspective) the freedom of movement of its citizens across the border was severely limited, hence the "prison" term. Yes, I know that (most probably) New Zealanders were perfectly free to go out to another country had they wished to do so, but once there they couldn't have come back (unless they were a multi-billionaire like the Google guy), I regard that as a prison-like system, because it majorly forces you to remain put (most probably your family, your job, your everything are located in New Zealand, you don't want to give them away). Yes, it is a system that saved lives, but nevertheless it is a system that restricted the freedom of movement of its citizens for almost two years now.
- cableshaft 5y ago
  They've allowed people to leave and come back (not the entire pandemic probably, but most of it), it's just if they come back they have to stay in a quarantine hotel for two weeks, especially if they tested positive for Covid. A quarantine hotel that a bunch of assholes were so fucking impatient that they literally climbed fences and dodged security to escape from just to grab beer or some shit and wasted millions of dollars as New Zealand tried to contact trace everyone they came in contact with and try to keep a spread on it further. When all they had to do was chill in a hotel for two weeks and then they'd be free to do whatever. https://thehill.com/policy/international/asia-pacific/570511-man-facing-charges-after-escaping-quarantine-hotel-in-new https://thehill.com/policy/international/asia-pacific/570511... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/02/new-zealand-police-surround-address-after-covid-positive-man-escapes-quarantine https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/02/new-zealand-po... https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/rest-of-world/man-arrested-after-new-zealand-quarantine-escape/articleshow/85863175.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/rest-of-world/man-... https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-man-escapes-miq-in-middle-of-night-police-told-at-1030am-today/I7BJDJR7U6CJTXW6URQGPZ3VTM/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-man-es... https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/454613/covid-19-two-escape-jet-park-quarantine-person-isolating-at-home-missing https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/454613/covid-19-two-esca... A couple of these might be the same person, I just did a quick google search, but I think I've seen at least a dozen of these stories out of New Zealand over the past year and a half.

jrochkind1 5y ago

What is a "reverse" open-air prison, what part of imprisonment are you suggesting is reversed?

oxfeed65261 5y ago
Not the GP, but I believe they mean that it keeps outsiders out rather than keeping insiders in.
- jrochkind1 5y ago
  I see. It's currently pretty darn hard for most of the world to get into the US, is the US also a "reverse open-air prison", which alarms the poster? Really, it's been almost impossible for the majority of the population of the planet to get into the USA before the pandemic. Most of the world would be thrilled if they could come if they quarantine for two weeks.
- paganel 5y ago
  That, and the the fear (for lack of a better word) of not going out of the country because getting back in would be impossible. As far as I understand that was the feeling of many of the expats living in Singapore, had they decided to get out of the city they couldn't have come back (and hence they would have lost their lucrative job, most probably).

mdoms 5y ago

I'm NZ born and bred. I oppose our current lockdown situation and think it should have been lifted a long time ago. I think we got extremely lucky in our first wave and I think our government handling of the delta wave (and the lack of preparation in advance of it) is shameful. I am extremely critical of our government and very disturbed by the media's handling of it. I could not be more depressed by the sorry state of our opposition. All of that to to say that describing NZ as a "reverse" open-air prison is so far beyond absurd I don't even know what to say. For one thing, Kiwis are free to leave NZ - perhaps it's Australia you're thinking of, which really did lock its citizens at home under punishment of 5 years in prison or a $66,000 fine[0]? 0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travel_during_the_COVID-19_pandemic#Oceania_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travel_during_the_COVID-19_pan...