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Author lists off group of people who should not get pager duty and I think it is unfair to the rest of the team that individuals who fall into the groups outlin

Author lists off group of people who should not get pager duty and I think it is unfair to the rest of the team that individuals who fall into the groups outlined are able to escape the duties and responsibilities of the job. If the job posting or interviewing was upfront about the role will have on-call then the interviewee should make the decision to not apply or accept the offer if they're unable to fulfill the responsibilities.

barrkel 5y ago
That attitude leads directly to ageism, sexism and other discriminatory practices, and has second order effects on society which are contrary to the long term interests of capitalism - a stable consumer base with disposable income. Fairness isn't a straightforward concept, but your conception is more naive and - I'd guess - self-serving than most. How do you feel about progressive income taxes? Under a simplistic model of fairness, flat rates seem fair, but in reality the marginal ability to pay increases, and perceived pain of paying decreases, with increased income and wealth. Now expand that concept from the monetary domain to the time domain, and consider how fair it is for people who are particularly time poor - for non-selfish reasons - to need to spend more of their time on the job. Affordances can be made for inclusiveness and they can be fair.
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  Fairness, as used by the parent, means “if someone else can do something, I should be able to too.” The other person’s situation is never a factor. They see someone getting things for free and they think they should have them for free too.
  - barrkel 5y ago
    Do you feel the same way about maternity and paternity leave?
kayodelycaon 5y ago
Many programming jobs require on-call and overtime when they shouldn’t. I wouldn’t be able to have a job if that requirement was truly valid. It’s usually not. I can’t do on-call for medical reasons, nor can I work overtime. Neither of these are considered to be an essential job function for programmers, regardless of job descriptions, under ADA. A company must justify that job requirement. They can’t. By the way, the “fairness” reason is explicitly excluded by law. It’s the entire reason ADA exists.
- doktorhladnjak 5y ago
  My understanding is that they must offer a reasonable accommodation. For on call, I imagine that takes usually just takes the form of assigning some different responsibilities. Doesn’t seem too burdensome. I worked with someone who had a sleep disorder. She would do twice as many on call shifts but only from like 8am to 8pm during the day. Someone else would take the night shift component, although that usually rotated too. It wasn’t a bad trade because most of the on call work happened during the day. The night shifter only rarely got woken up to deal with something, so on the whole they dealt with less on call.
msrenee 5y ago
You think it's unfair for people who have young children to not be expected to also be on call 24/7? The author even specifies that they're talking about kids too young to sleep through the night. It's unfair for people with sleep disorders to not have to worry about getting called in at 2 am? In the anxiety case, it even sounds like the employee really wanted to be on call, but maybe needs to see a specialist to handle their reaction to stress. If people don't deserve a little slack due to personal circumstances, what happens when you find yourself in a situation where you can't pull your weight? I feel like people who think that not being able to do 110% of your job at all times makes you unqualified are in for a rude awakening when they find themselves in a similar situation.
- twic 5y ago
  It's unfair for people who have young children to not be expected to also be on call 24/7 and be rewarded in the same way as people who don't, and are.
  - datavirtue 5y ago
    There is no reward for OnCall work...except for a lack of respect. The OnCall people have always been viewed as less. I'm not doing anything on call unless our department head is on the bridge the entire time. OnCall is a pain that is inflicted during working hours.
- shados 5y ago
  > You think it's unfair for people who have young children to not be expected to also be on call 24/7? That's dicey and depends on if you consider folks having children as them doing something they wanted for themselves, vs them doing society a favor. If the former, it's like reducing work responsibilities of someone because they're also taking piano lessons on the side and its cutting in their free time. It's their choice and they are doing it for themselves. If the later, then yeah, you'd have to cut them a break, in the same way we often do for folks with jury duty. But having young children isn't, like, a health condition someone's born with. The sleep disorder one is a bit trickier, since no one willing has sleep disorders. At the same time, it's not really your team mate's problems. I have some health issues that make me less productive at work. I don't get the roles, promotions, and compensation of the folks who can do more than I can. It sucks, but at the end of the day, companies hire you to do something. It's not a social service.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

barrkel 5y ago

That attitude leads directly to ageism, sexism and other discriminatory practices, and has second order effects on society which are contrary to the long term interests of capitalism - a stable consumer base with disposable income. Fairness isn't a straightforward concept, but your conception is more naive and - I'd guess - self-serving than most. How do you feel about progressive income taxes? Under a simplistic model of fairness, flat rates seem fair, but in reality the marginal ability to pay increases, and perceived pain of paying decreases, with increased income and wealth. Now expand that concept from the monetary domain to the time domain, and consider how fair it is for people who are particularly time poor - for non-selfish reasons - to need to spend more of their time on the job. Affordances can be made for inclusiveness and they can be fair.

kayodelycaon 5y ago
Fairness, as used by the parent, means “if someone else can do something, I should be able to too.” The other person’s situation is never a factor. They see someone getting things for free and they think they should have them for free too.
- barrkel 5y ago
  Do you feel the same way about maternity and paternity leave?

kayodelycaon 5y ago

Many programming jobs require on-call and overtime when they shouldn’t. I wouldn’t be able to have a job if that requirement was truly valid. It’s usually not. I can’t do on-call for medical reasons, nor can I work overtime. Neither of these are considered to be an essential job function for programmers, regardless of job descriptions, under ADA. A company must justify that job requirement. They can’t. By the way, the “fairness” reason is explicitly excluded by law. It’s the entire reason ADA exists.

doktorhladnjak 5y ago
My understanding is that they must offer a reasonable accommodation. For on call, I imagine that takes usually just takes the form of assigning some different responsibilities. Doesn’t seem too burdensome. I worked with someone who had a sleep disorder. She would do twice as many on call shifts but only from like 8am to 8pm during the day. Someone else would take the night shift component, although that usually rotated too. It wasn’t a bad trade because most of the on call work happened during the day. The night shifter only rarely got woken up to deal with something, so on the whole they dealt with less on call.

msrenee 5y ago

You think it's unfair for people who have young children to not be expected to also be on call 24/7? The author even specifies that they're talking about kids too young to sleep through the night. It's unfair for people with sleep disorders to not have to worry about getting called in at 2 am? In the anxiety case, it even sounds like the employee really wanted to be on call, but maybe needs to see a specialist to handle their reaction to stress. If people don't deserve a little slack due to personal circumstances, what happens when you find yourself in a situation where you can't pull your weight? I feel like people who think that not being able to do 110% of your job at all times makes you unqualified are in for a rude awakening when they find themselves in a similar situation.

twic 5y ago
It's unfair for people who have young children to not be expected to also be on call 24/7 and be rewarded in the same way as people who don't, and are.
- datavirtue 5y ago
  There is no reward for OnCall work...except for a lack of respect. The OnCall people have always been viewed as less. I'm not doing anything on call unless our department head is on the bridge the entire time. OnCall is a pain that is inflicted during working hours.
shados 5y ago
> You think it's unfair for people who have young children to not be expected to also be on call 24/7? That's dicey and depends on if you consider folks having children as them doing something they wanted for themselves, vs them doing society a favor. If the former, it's like reducing work responsibilities of someone because they're also taking piano lessons on the side and its cutting in their free time. It's their choice and they are doing it for themselves. If the later, then yeah, you'd have to cut them a break, in the same way we often do for folks with jury duty. But having young children isn't, like, a health condition someone's born with. The sleep disorder one is a bit trickier, since no one willing has sleep disorders. At the same time, it's not really your team mate's problems. I have some health issues that make me less productive at work. I don't get the roles, promotions, and compensation of the folks who can do more than I can. It sucks, but at the end of the day, companies hire you to do something. It's not a social service.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]