3 ms·

There are piles of great locks out there no one, including LPL, can open non destructively in hours of work, if at all. The trouble is very few of these can be

by lrvick 5y ago

There are piles of great locks out there no one, including LPL, can open non destructively in hours of work, if at all. The trouble is very few of these can be found in the US as consumers here favor low prices and a 10/10 promise over any actual security.

asimpletune 5y ago
Really? Asking because people send him locks all the time from all over the world, and he opens them all.
- lrvick 5y ago
  He doesn't open them all. He videos the ones he -can- open to shame them. The Kwikset smart key v3 can't be picked because you get no feedback until all pins are set. You can decode them one pin at a time with expensive specialized tools such as a micro camera put into the cylinder but they will keep someone out for a while so they do their job. You still need to cut a custom key to get in even when you decode it so it is time consuming. A Medeco will keep out even an experienced lockpicker for a while since pins must be in the right rotation and the right heights. Beyond that there are really good Disk Detainer locks like the Protec 2 that have no feedback until all discs are correct. There are 0 public confirmed defeats of them. Beyond that you get into hybrid digital keys like the Cliq. Then you can combine an cylinder known to not have any defeats with a second set of pins that can only be engaged after an AES challenge/response between a microcontroller in the key and one in the lock. These also have never been defeated. There are also solutions like the Bowley lock that don't expose the tumblers to the outside world and can only be defeated with many hours of work making custom tools for that specific lock. I could go on and on. The reason you can't buy good locks at US hardware stores is fully because the uneducated masses rejected high security locks once companies like master lock pumped out $5 locks with 10/10 security ratings in spite of any informed child being able to open them. I would love to see people like LPL put their lawyer hats on and sue these companies for dangerously deceptive advertising.
  - asimpletune 5y ago
    Ah ok, interesting. Thanks for the information. I wonder if LPL is on HN and is reading any of this.
  - paulhart 5y ago
    He also talks about things he can't pick - here's a video on the Bowley where he almost immediately admits he can't pick it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV8QKZNFxLw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV8QKZNFxLw There are a couple of (old) videos on Medeco locks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmyC7KM5Qxk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmyC7KM5Qxk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fh6IHCr7uo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fh6IHCr7uo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avwt39uHDOQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avwt39uHDOQ Related to the Disc Detainer (come for the tooling discussion, stay for the picking): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRO5wzAaT00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRO5wzAaT00
    - lrvick 5y ago
      Others have picked the Bowley even though LPL can't but it is more time and work than anyone could reasonably be able to do in a real world application so if anything those efforts are a strong endorsement of the lock.
      - mkl 5y ago
        This guy makes it look pretty easy, and doesn't use advanced tools or anything, just a piece of metal bent to go around the obstacle like the key does (i.e. totally reasonable time and work): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS0FSzamUzc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS0FSzamUzc Linked by ryzvonusef: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29367579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29367579
        lrvick 5y ago
        Fascinating! Of course if anyone did it, it would be huxley. It feels like Bowley underestimated strong vibration attacks like that and didn't invest enough in spool/serrated pins. I suspect this is correctable, but I wonder if it would work as well mounted in a sturdy door since the vibration is not directly connecting with the pins.
hun-nemethpeter 5y ago
Can you name or even link a few?

by lrvick 5y ago

asimpletune 5y ago

Really? Asking because people send him locks all the time from all over the world, and he opens them all.

lrvick 5y ago
He doesn't open them all. He videos the ones he -can- open to shame them. The Kwikset smart key v3 can't be picked because you get no feedback until all pins are set. You can decode them one pin at a time with expensive specialized tools such as a micro camera put into the cylinder but they will keep someone out for a while so they do their job. You still need to cut a custom key to get in even when you decode it so it is time consuming. A Medeco will keep out even an experienced lockpicker for a while since pins must be in the right rotation and the right heights. Beyond that there are really good Disk Detainer locks like the Protec 2 that have no feedback until all discs are correct. There are 0 public confirmed defeats of them. Beyond that you get into hybrid digital keys like the Cliq. Then you can combine an cylinder known to not have any defeats with a second set of pins that can only be engaged after an AES challenge/response between a microcontroller in the key and one in the lock. These also have never been defeated. There are also solutions like the Bowley lock that don't expose the tumblers to the outside world and can only be defeated with many hours of work making custom tools for that specific lock. I could go on and on. The reason you can't buy good locks at US hardware stores is fully because the uneducated masses rejected high security locks once companies like master lock pumped out $5 locks with 10/10 security ratings in spite of any informed child being able to open them. I would love to see people like LPL put their lawyer hats on and sue these companies for dangerously deceptive advertising.
- asimpletune 5y ago
  Ah ok, interesting. Thanks for the information. I wonder if LPL is on HN and is reading any of this.
- paulhart 5y ago
  He also talks about things he can't pick - here's a video on the Bowley where he almost immediately admits he can't pick it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV8QKZNFxLw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV8QKZNFxLw There are a couple of (old) videos on Medeco locks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmyC7KM5Qxk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmyC7KM5Qxk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fh6IHCr7uo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fh6IHCr7uo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avwt39uHDOQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avwt39uHDOQ Related to the Disc Detainer (come for the tooling discussion, stay for the picking): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRO5wzAaT00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRO5wzAaT00
  - lrvick 5y ago
    Others have picked the Bowley even though LPL can't but it is more time and work than anyone could reasonably be able to do in a real world application so if anything those efforts are a strong endorsement of the lock.
    - mkl 5y ago
      This guy makes it look pretty easy, and doesn't use advanced tools or anything, just a piece of metal bent to go around the obstacle like the key does (i.e. totally reasonable time and work): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS0FSzamUzc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS0FSzamUzc Linked by ryzvonusef: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29367579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29367579
      - lrvick 5y ago
        Fascinating! Of course if anyone did it, it would be huxley. It feels like Bowley underestimated strong vibration attacks like that and didn't invest enough in spool/serrated pins. I suspect this is correctable, but I wonder if it would work as well mounted in a sturdy door since the vibration is not directly connecting with the pins.

hun-nemethpeter 5y ago

Can you name or even link a few?