5 ms·

> Your first statement applies to anything and everything though. If I make any decision that my junior devs aren't comfortable with, I should either do the wor

> Your first statement applies to anything and everything though. If I make any decision that my junior devs aren't comfortable with, I should either do the work for them or train them up. You train them up. You don’t do the work for them nor do you intentionally cripple your application to avoid your responsibility of training them up. A healthy organisation will have feature branches, pull requests with peer reviews. You’ll have unit tests, and CI/CD to enforce those tests. You’ll have code coverage analysis too. This is all pretty standard stuff these days so there’s no excuse in wussing out from supporting your junior engineers. > What programming languages abstract away all the as many details of the RDBMS as something like sqlalchemy? Sqlite and postgres do enough things just slightly differently that I'd have to take slightly different code paths to support both. At the very least they'd both require different drivers. You don’t initiate the drivers inside your SQL queries. In fact Perl has had tools to abstract that away for 2 decades! PHP, Java and Go abstract away the driver initiation too. In fact of the dozen or so different backend languages I’ve used over the years, I can’t think of any where you couldn’t go that. More over it is the correct way to architect one’s code. This is basic stuff, web 101. Yeah some SQL syntax might differ from one RDBMS to another. If that’s the case then your dev environment should mirror the production environment (frankly that should be the case anyway otherwise you’d end up back in the “it works on my machine” arguments of the last decade; back before we learned how to do this shit correctly). > In almost all instances where someone suggests that what is really needed is better software development practices, they're going to be outperformed by better tooling and people using the easier route for the most people. But you’re doing the exact opposite of that by not using git feature branches, CI/CD, abstracting away your DB connection (which leads me to wonder if you’re even using connection pooling), unit tests, consistent development environments and all the other advancements of the last 20 years. This isn’t a hypothetical argument either. I’ve been in the industry for decades, have worked on workflows like you’ve described as well as ones like I have. When I’ve worked in shops like you describe and the quality of the output was embarrassing. I’ve also managed places where I’ve then introduced the aforementioned and the number of bugs in production plummeted, the amount of QA time needed dropped, the number of times we’ve had to rollback a release have dropped to zero, the junior developers are now snake to work across more projects (giving more room for more projects to happen) and the CEOs impression of the team has gone up significantly.

dagmx 5y ago
You say it's not a hypothetical argument, yet the majority of your comment is based on a projected hypothetical. In fact the majority of your argument isn't even focused on the discussion of an ORM but on a situation you made up. ---- That said, let's address your frankly odd rebuttal... Training takes time , and in a lot of cases is going to have a negligible gain over just using the ORM to begin with. Regarding everything else like CI, branches etc... (you're now making a strawman but let's address it anyway) Of course those are important, and they have a way smaller cost per dev than learning a new language, and making sure every PR is valid against the current schemas of the DB, without introducing accidental performance footguns. In the end it's all about all the forms of cost, which is exactly what my initial post said and you seem to have glossed over. Using an ORM isn't free for every use case, but in many use cases it's cheaper than training up people, especially when this isn't a regular part of their job. Perhaps you're assuming a job where everyone is constantly working on DB interactions but a lot of gigs have stuff like this as a small part of the job. If they were only doing db interactions, then obviously the cost calculation changes. I'm also not talking about cost in monetary terms. I'm talking about cost in terms of time, effort, financials, planning etc... I'm not sure why you suddenly suggest I wouldn't be using git branches or CI to try and make your point? Again, those have a better cost to benefit ratio. Every single decision is down to that.when picking a project.
- laumars 5y ago
  > In fact the majority of your argument isn't even focused on the discussion of an ORM but on a situation you made up. No, the vast majority was explaining how development best practices resolve the common use case that is being presented here for why ORMs are a good thing (namely “my junior devs are somehow too stupid to learn SQL”). > That said, let's address your frankly odd rebuttal... What’s odd is that you think setting up guardrails to prevent human error and then empowering your developers to write good code is itself odd. > In the end it's all about all the forms of cost, which is exactly what my initial post said and you seem to have glossed over. I covered that point with my anecdote, where I talked about the improvements that best practices bring. > Using an ORM isn't free for every use case, but in many use cases it's cheaper than training up people, especially when this isn't a regular part of their job. Perhaps you're assuming a job where everyone is constantly working on DB interactions but a lot of gigs have stuff like this as a small part of the job. It doesn’t cost any extra to train people up using the development practices I’ve outlined. Training just becomes a side effect of day to day reviews. However ORMs have a very real performance cost that will have an ongoing bottom line in your infrastructure performance and hosting costs. One is a free win/win scenario and the other is a lazy hack that adds costs. > If they were only doing db interactions, then obviously the cost calculation changes. You’re underestimating your juniors ability to learn. Or you happen to work in some really toxic environments (which might explain your other view points). But you don’t need to clock up 40 hours a week on SQL to become competent enough to write most queries. Remember we are not talking about making them DBAs, just then being competent enough to be at least as good as your average ORM (which, frankly, isn’t hard). > I'm also not talking about cost in monetary terms. I'm talking about cost in terms of time, effort, financials, planning etc... I’ve been factoring all of them in as well. I’m a cost centre owner and people manager and so I’m well versed in how to equate costs correctly. I’ve had to do exactly these kinds of studies professionally. > I'm not sure why you suddenly suggest I wouldn't be using git branches or CI to try and make your point? Because you make the argument that getting juniors to write SQL will lead to footguns and I’m explaining how you manage that correctly. > Again, those have a better cost to benefit ratio. Every single decision is down to that.when picking a project. No, those practices should be default for any all commercial projects. If you’re knocking up a POC or building something for a hobby then feel free to do it however you want (within reason). But anything built as part of an internal system or external product, and especially if it needs to be maintained for any duration of time, they should all be developed using the principles I’ve described.

dagmx 5y ago

You say it's not a hypothetical argument, yet the majority of your comment is based on a projected hypothetical. In fact the majority of your argument isn't even focused on the discussion of an ORM but on a situation you made up. ---- That said, let's address your frankly odd rebuttal... Training takes time , and in a lot of cases is going to have a negligible gain over just using the ORM to begin with. Regarding everything else like CI, branches etc... (you're now making a strawman but let's address it anyway) Of course those are important, and they have a way smaller cost per dev than learning a new language, and making sure every PR is valid against the current schemas of the DB, without introducing accidental performance footguns. In the end it's all about all the forms of cost, which is exactly what my initial post said and you seem to have glossed over. Using an ORM isn't free for every use case, but in many use cases it's cheaper than training up people, especially when this isn't a regular part of their job. Perhaps you're assuming a job where everyone is constantly working on DB interactions but a lot of gigs have stuff like this as a small part of the job. If they were only doing db interactions, then obviously the cost calculation changes. I'm also not talking about cost in monetary terms. I'm talking about cost in terms of time, effort, financials, planning etc... I'm not sure why you suddenly suggest I wouldn't be using git branches or CI to try and make your point? Again, those have a better cost to benefit ratio. Every single decision is down to that.when picking a project.

laumars 5y ago
> In fact the majority of your argument isn't even focused on the discussion of an ORM but on a situation you made up. No, the vast majority was explaining how development best practices resolve the common use case that is being presented here for why ORMs are a good thing (namely “my junior devs are somehow too stupid to learn SQL”). > That said, let's address your frankly odd rebuttal... What’s odd is that you think setting up guardrails to prevent human error and then empowering your developers to write good code is itself odd. > In the end it's all about all the forms of cost, which is exactly what my initial post said and you seem to have glossed over. I covered that point with my anecdote, where I talked about the improvements that best practices bring. > Using an ORM isn't free for every use case, but in many use cases it's cheaper than training up people, especially when this isn't a regular part of their job. Perhaps you're assuming a job where everyone is constantly working on DB interactions but a lot of gigs have stuff like this as a small part of the job. It doesn’t cost any extra to train people up using the development practices I’ve outlined. Training just becomes a side effect of day to day reviews. However ORMs have a very real performance cost that will have an ongoing bottom line in your infrastructure performance and hosting costs. One is a free win/win scenario and the other is a lazy hack that adds costs. > If they were only doing db interactions, then obviously the cost calculation changes. You’re underestimating your juniors ability to learn. Or you happen to work in some really toxic environments (which might explain your other view points). But you don’t need to clock up 40 hours a week on SQL to become competent enough to write most queries. Remember we are not talking about making them DBAs, just then being competent enough to be at least as good as your average ORM (which, frankly, isn’t hard). > I'm also not talking about cost in monetary terms. I'm talking about cost in terms of time, effort, financials, planning etc... I’ve been factoring all of them in as well. I’m a cost centre owner and people manager and so I’m well versed in how to equate costs correctly. I’ve had to do exactly these kinds of studies professionally. > I'm not sure why you suddenly suggest I wouldn't be using git branches or CI to try and make your point? Because you make the argument that getting juniors to write SQL will lead to footguns and I’m explaining how you manage that correctly. > Again, those have a better cost to benefit ratio. Every single decision is down to that.when picking a project. No, those practices should be default for any all commercial projects. If you’re knocking up a POC or building something for a hobby then feel free to do it however you want (within reason). But anything built as part of an internal system or external product, and especially if it needs to be maintained for any duration of time, they should all be developed using the principles I’ve described.