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You never mentioned why you think mining should be illegal. Probably because of the outrage published by the media based on intuitive assumptions that end up no

by yrral 5y ago

You never mentioned why you think mining should be illegal. Probably because of the outrage published by the media based on intuitive assumptions that end up not being true. That bitcoin mining long term is bad for the environment. However, this is not true even though it intuitively seems that way. (Similar to how making highways wider actually ends up making traffic worse, not better). We can actually start with 1 question: If electricity demand from PoW mining spurs new renewable plants to be built, is that bad for the environment? I (and many electricity companies) actually think PoW mining is good for the grid/renewable adoption in the long term. Let me explain why: Some indisputable facts to get us started: 1. Most renewable electricity has unpredictable supply 2. Introducing marginal capacity of the same type gives diminishing returns. Eg: you're producing more during high supply times where electricity rate is low. During lower production periods all of the same type of renewable will be producing less so you can't even take advantage of the higher rates. 3. Rational bitcoin miners will turn off their machines when cost of power is greater than marginal return. As a result, PoW mining will help the economics of building new wind/solar plants. Eg, currently it may not be profitable to build a new wind plant because base load is too low that the excess power generated would need to be sold off at 0 or even negative prices. However if bitcoin mining could be turned on during these times and off during periods of high demand, there will need to be fewer peaker plants in operation and it would positively affect the economics of opening a new wind plant. Bitcoin mining only cares about the cost of electricity at a given time, it is not like most other electricity demands that are very time based. With the large variance of electricity generation by renewables, I think bitcoin can in the future help smooth demand according to the real supply/demand curve. It's kind of like a different implementation of the Tesla utility grid batteries. Instead of deploying batteries, you force the grid to build more renewable capacity (that the miners are paying for) that miners use except in peak periods, where you turn off and effectively provide the grid with more power.

jankeymeulen 5y ago
Or, instead of creating Bitcoin with excess energy, one could produce e.g. hydrogen. Which, compared to Bitcoin, has a lot more uses.
tsimionescu 5y ago
> If electricity demand from PoW mining spurs new renewable plants to be built, is that bad for the environment? Yes, obviously. Even if every single miner pool built its own solar/wind plant to power 100% of its energy needs, that would still be horrible for the environment: building the power plant itself produces harm to the environment; and the space and work and money used to create the Bitcoin miner's power plant could have gone into replacing (closing down) a non-renewable power plant. Silly arguments about pricing volatile electricity only work if we assume maximizing profit is the ultimate good or that PoW is the only way to use that excess power. In reality, if we want to avoid the worse catastrophes that our current economy is pushing the world towards, we have to stop looking at profit, and choose less profitable but more useful ways of handling volatility - batteries, long-distance transmission, etc.
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  1. do you agree that an industrial economy can run on windmills and solar? 2. do you agree that nuclear is a sustainable and necessary solution? 3. do you agree that mining provides massive incentives, on huge scale, to nuclear power developers?
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    Yes (with some help from nuclear, hydro), yes, and no/irrelevant. Power generation is a social concern, and states provide plenty of incentive to build power plants, especially nuclear - crypto mining is a profit chasing wasteful afterthought.

by yrral 5y ago

jankeymeulen 5y ago

Or, instead of creating Bitcoin with excess energy, one could produce e.g. hydrogen. Which, compared to Bitcoin, has a lot more uses.

tsimionescu 5y ago

> If electricity demand from PoW mining spurs new renewable plants to be built, is that bad for the environment? Yes, obviously. Even if every single miner pool built its own solar/wind plant to power 100% of its energy needs, that would still be horrible for the environment: building the power plant itself produces harm to the environment; and the space and work and money used to create the Bitcoin miner's power plant could have gone into replacing (closing down) a non-renewable power plant. Silly arguments about pricing volatile electricity only work if we assume maximizing profit is the ultimate good or that PoW is the only way to use that excess power. In reality, if we want to avoid the worse catastrophes that our current economy is pushing the world towards, we have to stop looking at profit, and choose less profitable but more useful ways of handling volatility - batteries, long-distance transmission, etc.

inter_netuser 5y ago
1. do you agree that an industrial economy can run on windmills and solar? 2. do you agree that nuclear is a sustainable and necessary solution? 3. do you agree that mining provides massive incentives, on huge scale, to nuclear power developers?
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  Yes (with some help from nuclear, hydro), yes, and no/irrelevant. Power generation is a social concern, and states provide plenty of incentive to build power plants, especially nuclear - crypto mining is a profit chasing wasteful afterthought.