3 ms·

I recall seeing that discussion disappear since the booster was shown to restore our immune system to a similar levels of response, even for delta, so there was

I recall seeing that discussion disappear since the booster was shown to restore our immune system to a similar levels of response, even for delta, so there wasn't any expected advantage to it. (for example, see how Moderna recently discussed their clinical plans https://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases/news-release-details/moderna-announces-strategy-address-omicron-b11529-sars-cov-2 https://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases/news-release-d...) The seasonal flu is different because it mutates faster and there are more variants of it. So each year is different enough that our bodies don't recognize it. While for COVID, so far, it hasn't mutated enough to evade our learned immunity. Also, @eggy, your family may be more at risk from ADE because of their natural immunity than if you had gotten them vaccinated. The papers I've read discuss how the vaccines where designed to help your body avoid this problem, while the virus has no such consideration. ADE does occur due to natural infection by many viruses (such as the list near the top of this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody-dependent_enhancement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody-dependent_enhancement), but has not been observed to occur with any of the current vaccines for COVID.

eggy 5y ago
@manwe150 I believe vaccinated or naturally immune people can exhibit ADE, and they don't have enough data yet to differentiate or quantify it [1]. It's variants like Delta and Omicron that may cause the production of inflammatory cytokines. As far as my family being at risk for ADE or any one of the COVID variants, I bet on natural immunity. And I think history will prove me right and add to the already established track record of natural immunity with other diseases. They found people who had SARS 10 years ago still have a robust immunity system against it, and it is related to COVID more than non-SAR viruses. Why countries are pushing to boost double-vaccinated young people is beyond me. Go ahead and boost the elderly and those with comorbidities, sure, but the risk is so low, even by the CDC's own published data for young, healthy people, that it is ridiculous. Even the CDC admits there are a high number of undetected cases in the young due to asymptomatic or very mild symptoms, which means that the published risk is most certainly even lower. Send more vaccines to other countries at this point rather than feed people's fear with another booster as placebo for those with natural immunity or previous vaccination. The FDA just voted before Omicron not to boost the young, 16 years and older at the end of September, but then Omicron comes along with admittedly no new data, and they flip instantly and approve boosters for the young. I'll take the 18 or so peer-reviewed papers that show natural immunity is as strong if not significantly stronger than vaccines, and the risk for healthy people under 65 vs. the CDC's two cherry-picked, self-published papers that try to knock natural immunity. It is very clear that COVID is a disease of the elderly and sick vs. the healthy and young. And it must be said that obesity is a leading comorbidity after age in COVID hospitalizations and deaths. Obesity has a medical code associated with it, yet doctors don't always code it for various reasons when someone is admitted with respiratory or other symptoms - we've gotten so used to it here in the U.S. getting worse and worse, we don't see it anymore; doctors don't want to be accused of fat-shaming (did we fear skinny-shaming of anorexia in the 80s and 90s? No, we called it what it was - a disease and tried to address it). So the 68% to 78% number of COVID hospitalizations with obesity as a comorbidity is probably even higher. I'll never forget when I came back to the U.S. after living overseas for 7 years, and how noticeable the increase in obesity was with fresh eyes. I grew up working class in Brooklyn, and most of my extended family were trim and active from work. My whole neighborhood in Brooklyn was like that. Now, I see so many people in electric carts, and handicap parking tags. It's no wonder a country as developed as ours has so many deaths from COVID. [1] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/20587384211050199 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/20587384211050...

eggy 5y ago

@manwe150 I believe vaccinated or naturally immune people can exhibit ADE, and they don't have enough data yet to differentiate or quantify it [1]. It's variants like Delta and Omicron that may cause the production of inflammatory cytokines. As far as my family being at risk for ADE or any one of the COVID variants, I bet on natural immunity. And I think history will prove me right and add to the already established track record of natural immunity with other diseases. They found people who had SARS 10 years ago still have a robust immunity system against it, and it is related to COVID more than non-SAR viruses. Why countries are pushing to boost double-vaccinated young people is beyond me. Go ahead and boost the elderly and those with comorbidities, sure, but the risk is so low, even by the CDC's own published data for young, healthy people, that it is ridiculous. Even the CDC admits there are a high number of undetected cases in the young due to asymptomatic or very mild symptoms, which means that the published risk is most certainly even lower. Send more vaccines to other countries at this point rather than feed people's fear with another booster as placebo for those with natural immunity or previous vaccination. The FDA just voted before Omicron not to boost the young, 16 years and older at the end of September, but then Omicron comes along with admittedly no new data, and they flip instantly and approve boosters for the young. I'll take the 18 or so peer-reviewed papers that show natural immunity is as strong if not significantly stronger than vaccines, and the risk for healthy people under 65 vs. the CDC's two cherry-picked, self-published papers that try to knock natural immunity. It is very clear that COVID is a disease of the elderly and sick vs. the healthy and young. And it must be said that obesity is a leading comorbidity after age in COVID hospitalizations and deaths. Obesity has a medical code associated with it, yet doctors don't always code it for various reasons when someone is admitted with respiratory or other symptoms - we've gotten so used to it here in the U.S. getting worse and worse, we don't see it anymore; doctors don't want to be accused of fat-shaming (did we fear skinny-shaming of anorexia in the 80s and 90s? No, we called it what it was - a disease and tried to address it). So the 68% to 78% number of COVID hospitalizations with obesity as a comorbidity is probably even higher. I'll never forget when I came back to the U.S. after living overseas for 7 years, and how noticeable the increase in obesity was with fresh eyes. I grew up working class in Brooklyn, and most of my extended family were trim and active from work. My whole neighborhood in Brooklyn was like that. Now, I see so many people in electric carts, and handicap parking tags. It's no wonder a country as developed as ours has so many deaths from COVID. [1] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/20587384211050199 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/20587384211050...