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Maybe I am old-school but 5 times in a 9 hour drive seems unacceptably high for a potentially dangerous event. Is it incorrect to believe the car brakes at full

Maybe I am old-school but 5 times in a 9 hour drive seems unacceptably high for a potentially dangerous event. Is it incorrect to believe the car brakes at full braking force? Is there some predictor of the car making this error that makes it easier to handle?

csa 5y ago
> Is it incorrect to believe the car brakes at full braking force? For me, that is incorrect. I would not consider it dangerous at all. For me, it was more like lifting off the accelerator for a split second if I were in full control. One time that my car did brake aggressively was when an 18-wheeler was gradually easing into my lane (not on Vegas drive). It was probably a slight over-reaction, but probably one that would have saved my life if the truck had veered into my lane (likely dodging something or sleeping truck driver). I have heard of people getting the aggressive braking phantom brake experience, but I haven’t. It’s also trivially easy to address just by pressing the accelerator — the driver is supposed to be paying attention. Fwiw, this is a deal breaker for a Tesla for one friend of mine. She has motion sickness that is frighteningly easy to trigger (autopilot or even just me driving, and I’m not an aggressive driver). She’s a bit of a motion sickness snowflake, and she readily admits as much. Predictions seem to be the following: 1. Driving into the shadows of 18-wheelers. 2. Driving into the shadows of overpasses. 3. Driving on roads that are reflective and have weird patterns on them. I don’t know how to describe this. My buddy and I consistently experience this a time or three going up the mountain towards Tehachapi between Bakersfield and Barstow. My guess is that this problem is or should be solvable by machine learning (same phantom braking at same time of day at the same place with driver override). My biggest complaint about autopilot is that it aggressively turns the brights on at night. I’m not sure if it is outside of legal or reasonable use of brights, but I just find it easier to take full control — I try to be a friendly driver. One last thing that I didn’t mention in my original post — using autopilot in stop-and-go traffic is an absolute dream. It takes a ton of hassle and stress out of that type of driving.
- unclebucknasty 5y ago
  One of the themes I'm noticing in these subthreads is that some people have a really high tolerance for errors, while others shudder at the thought of a vehicle doing anything it's not supposed to. I'm in the latter camp. The idea that the car might randomly override my inputs in error at any time is downright frightening to me. Blows my mind to see someone so casual about it, simply because they've yet to have a more extreme incident, especially given that others have. I think where people come down on this is owed to something fundamental in their nature/wiring.
  - csa 5y ago
    > The idea that the car might randomly override my inputs in error I don’t recall ever saying anything like this happened. My discussion about phantom braking is when autopilot is on. There is no input from me unless I have to or choose to take over. If you don’t want any of the automatic features (autopilot, lane assist, FSD, etc.), they are all trivially easy to turn off or not use. Seriously, just go drive one. The way you talk about a Tesla, as though it will just yoink control at any moment from someone who wants full control, is about as far as you can get from the reality. The idea of “tolerating” undesired behavior in a driver assist process in a car seems… pretty normal? That’s why settings exist — you don’t have to tolerate anything that passes your own tolerance threshold. I don’t know how many folks you know in real life who actually drive teslas, but the narrative that you describe and the narrative that the people I know who own and drive teslas are about as far apart as it can get. [1] [1] There is a caveat that folks who bought new models right after they were released had a lot of build issues. That’s pretty unforgivable from the Tesla side, imho. That said, it’s a known issue. Let other people guinea pig the new models. Tesla eventually gets it very right.
    - unclebucknasty 5y ago
      >My discussion about phantom braking is when autopilot is on...trivially easy to turn off Seems odd to have to disable features based, not on one's preferences, but on one's tolerance for errors, especially given that--even without full autopilot enabled--some of those features would be considered active safety features. "This feature can help keep you safe, but it also might make mistakes, so tap here if you don't want to roll the dice". In any case, my main point was around the fact that people have such a wide tolerance for errors. I think it's interesting and I was suggesting that it's something more intrinsic to the individual, which I believe is one reason people's opinions on Tesla seem to be "polarized". You'll probably never see those errors as a big deal. I'll probably never see them as not a big deal. >I don’t know how many folks you know in real life who actually drive teslas, but the narrative that you describe... I know a few. I don't really talk about their cars with them. And, in any case, it seems like their experiences would vary based on which models/years/updates they've experienced, which features they use and, of course, their tolerance for errors and other problems. In general, I never really considered that I have a Tesla "narrative". If I owned one I might care enough to have one. My only concern is that the company is too cavalier about safety issues, to include the name "Autopilot" itself, which seems to want the cachet of what the term implies without the responsibility that comes with people trusting it.

csa 5y ago

> Is it incorrect to believe the car brakes at full braking force? For me, that is incorrect. I would not consider it dangerous at all. For me, it was more like lifting off the accelerator for a split second if I were in full control. One time that my car did brake aggressively was when an 18-wheeler was gradually easing into my lane (not on Vegas drive). It was probably a slight over-reaction, but probably one that would have saved my life if the truck had veered into my lane (likely dodging something or sleeping truck driver). I have heard of people getting the aggressive braking phantom brake experience, but I haven’t. It’s also trivially easy to address just by pressing the accelerator — the driver is supposed to be paying attention. Fwiw, this is a deal breaker for a Tesla for one friend of mine. She has motion sickness that is frighteningly easy to trigger (autopilot or even just me driving, and I’m not an aggressive driver). She’s a bit of a motion sickness snowflake, and she readily admits as much. Predictions seem to be the following: 1. Driving into the shadows of 18-wheelers. 2. Driving into the shadows of overpasses. 3. Driving on roads that are reflective and have weird patterns on them. I don’t know how to describe this. My buddy and I consistently experience this a time or three going up the mountain towards Tehachapi between Bakersfield and Barstow. My guess is that this problem is or should be solvable by machine learning (same phantom braking at same time of day at the same place with driver override). My biggest complaint about autopilot is that it aggressively turns the brights on at night. I’m not sure if it is outside of legal or reasonable use of brights, but I just find it easier to take full control — I try to be a friendly driver. One last thing that I didn’t mention in my original post — using autopilot in stop-and-go traffic is an absolute dream. It takes a ton of hassle and stress out of that type of driving.

unclebucknasty 5y ago
One of the themes I'm noticing in these subthreads is that some people have a really high tolerance for errors, while others shudder at the thought of a vehicle doing anything it's not supposed to. I'm in the latter camp. The idea that the car might randomly override my inputs in error at any time is downright frightening to me. Blows my mind to see someone so casual about it, simply because they've yet to have a more extreme incident, especially given that others have. I think where people come down on this is owed to something fundamental in their nature/wiring.
- csa 5y ago
  > The idea that the car might randomly override my inputs in error I don’t recall ever saying anything like this happened. My discussion about phantom braking is when autopilot is on. There is no input from me unless I have to or choose to take over. If you don’t want any of the automatic features (autopilot, lane assist, FSD, etc.), they are all trivially easy to turn off or not use. Seriously, just go drive one. The way you talk about a Tesla, as though it will just yoink control at any moment from someone who wants full control, is about as far as you can get from the reality. The idea of “tolerating” undesired behavior in a driver assist process in a car seems… pretty normal? That’s why settings exist — you don’t have to tolerate anything that passes your own tolerance threshold. I don’t know how many folks you know in real life who actually drive teslas, but the narrative that you describe and the narrative that the people I know who own and drive teslas are about as far apart as it can get. [1] [1] There is a caveat that folks who bought new models right after they were released had a lot of build issues. That’s pretty unforgivable from the Tesla side, imho. That said, it’s a known issue. Let other people guinea pig the new models. Tesla eventually gets it very right.
  - unclebucknasty 5y ago
    >My discussion about phantom braking is when autopilot is on...trivially easy to turn off Seems odd to have to disable features based, not on one's preferences, but on one's tolerance for errors, especially given that--even without full autopilot enabled--some of those features would be considered active safety features. "This feature can help keep you safe, but it also might make mistakes, so tap here if you don't want to roll the dice". In any case, my main point was around the fact that people have such a wide tolerance for errors. I think it's interesting and I was suggesting that it's something more intrinsic to the individual, which I believe is one reason people's opinions on Tesla seem to be "polarized". You'll probably never see those errors as a big deal. I'll probably never see them as not a big deal. >I don’t know how many folks you know in real life who actually drive teslas, but the narrative that you describe... I know a few. I don't really talk about their cars with them. And, in any case, it seems like their experiences would vary based on which models/years/updates they've experienced, which features they use and, of course, their tolerance for errors and other problems. In general, I never really considered that I have a Tesla "narrative". If I owned one I might care enough to have one. My only concern is that the company is too cavalier about safety issues, to include the name "Autopilot" itself, which seems to want the cachet of what the term implies without the responsibility that comes with people trusting it.