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No. That is not how I read this thread. My understanding is that the _possibility_ of the young manager rejecting advice is enough for older engineers to not co

No. That is not how I read this thread. My understanding is that the _possibility_ of the young manager rejecting advice is enough for older engineers to not consider positions reporting to those managers.

dcow 5y ago
I don’t think I said possibility. And experience isn’t always correlated with age. I’ve seen older managers that just entered the industry after doing a python bootcamp, for instance. I wouldn't have any problem with a younger manager if they knew their craft, personally. Unfortunately too often I’ve seen companies pull in “managers” from unrelated fields and/or with little to no technical experience. Manager I/II equaling staff or senior engineer on the totem pole is what I’m calling out.
- mavelikara 5y ago
  > I’ve seen older managers that just entered the industry after doing a python bootcamp, for instance. > ... > Unfortunately too often I’ve seen companies pull in “managers” from unrelated fields and/or with little to no technical experience. I haven't seen either of these, so my comment was based on that. In my experience, first-line EMs are always senior engineers who choose to take the manager career track. In such firms, and only in such firms, I don't find anything wrong in Manager Is being equal to senior/staff engineers. What I am calling out, if you can call it that, is that senior engineers refusing to report to anyone less than C-suite or VPs is doing the profession a disservice. People manager don't grow on trees - they have to grown and trained within the cohort of people practicing the profession. We need to collectively train these junior managers to be able to work with more senior engineers. Senior engineers who don't want to take on people management duties will have to accept that there is a likelihood that they will eventually report to someone less experienced in some facets of the profession. Insisting that the company find a people manager who is deemed worthwhile for you to report to is spreading the stereotype that senior engineers are difficult to manage, resulting in ageism in hiring.
  - dcow 5y ago
    Sure but we're talking about staff/principle engineer, not senior. Assuming there is a meaningful difference (which is not always the case) then it's a bit odd for principle engineer to report to senior engineer/manager-in-training, no?
    - mavelikara 5y ago
      I used the word "senior" to mean engineers who are more experienced - sorry, that was not clear. > it's a bit odd for principle engineer to report to senior engineer/manager-in-training, no? No. This is where, I think, we disagree. In most startups, people report to a founder who is CEO-in-training. There are so many examples of these, that I assume that reasonable people don't find that odd. If that is the case, why should it be odd that a senior engineer reports to someone relatively early in their management role (but not new to technology profession)?

dcow 5y ago

I don’t think I said possibility. And experience isn’t always correlated with age. I’ve seen older managers that just entered the industry after doing a python bootcamp, for instance. I wouldn't have any problem with a younger manager if they knew their craft, personally. Unfortunately too often I’ve seen companies pull in “managers” from unrelated fields and/or with little to no technical experience. Manager I/II equaling staff or senior engineer on the totem pole is what I’m calling out.

mavelikara 5y ago
> I’ve seen older managers that just entered the industry after doing a python bootcamp, for instance. > ... > Unfortunately too often I’ve seen companies pull in “managers” from unrelated fields and/or with little to no technical experience. I haven't seen either of these, so my comment was based on that. In my experience, first-line EMs are always senior engineers who choose to take the manager career track. In such firms, and only in such firms, I don't find anything wrong in Manager Is being equal to senior/staff engineers. What I am calling out, if you can call it that, is that senior engineers refusing to report to anyone less than C-suite or VPs is doing the profession a disservice. People manager don't grow on trees - they have to grown and trained within the cohort of people practicing the profession. We need to collectively train these junior managers to be able to work with more senior engineers. Senior engineers who don't want to take on people management duties will have to accept that there is a likelihood that they will eventually report to someone less experienced in some facets of the profession. Insisting that the company find a people manager who is deemed worthwhile for you to report to is spreading the stereotype that senior engineers are difficult to manage, resulting in ageism in hiring.
- dcow 5y ago
  Sure but we're talking about staff/principle engineer, not senior. Assuming there is a meaningful difference (which is not always the case) then it's a bit odd for principle engineer to report to senior engineer/manager-in-training, no?
  - mavelikara 5y ago
    I used the word "senior" to mean engineers who are more experienced - sorry, that was not clear. > it's a bit odd for principle engineer to report to senior engineer/manager-in-training, no? No. This is where, I think, we disagree. In most startups, people report to a founder who is CEO-in-training. There are so many examples of these, that I assume that reasonable people don't find that odd. If that is the case, why should it be odd that a senior engineer reports to someone relatively early in their management role (but not new to technology profession)?