6 ms·

I feel like as a software engineer, in most of the western world, if you actually save money (and invest!), and don't make stupid financial decisions, you can p

I feel like as a software engineer, in most of the western world, if you actually save money (and invest!), and don't make stupid financial decisions, you can probably retire by 50.

jspaetzel 5y ago
If you've been doing it for most of your career, certainly. But a lot of people start their careers later or make dumb decisions with money for a chunk of the time, those things can totally push retirement well past 50.
- askonomm 5y ago
  For sure! I was merely saying that it's not a unicorn, it _can_ actually be achieved with high probability and lots of effort, as opposed to being flat out impossible for the minimum wage workers, for example.
iso1210 5y ago
If you're pulling a 6 figure salary then sure. If you've been earning on a typical career - say £25k/yr starting in your mid 20s, £35k-£45k through your 30s, perhaps getting upto £60k by the time you're into your 40s, you won't have saved enough to pull even £20k a year for a few decades. https://uk.indeed.com/company/Precision-Microdrives/jobs/Software-Engineer-01b57b2204ac4840?fccid=ac2e4d8cef116119&vjs=3 https://uk.indeed.com/company/Precision-Microdrives/jobs/Sof... https://uk.indeed.com/rc/clk?jk=62dc4988a0e4f36b&fccid=0de01f2ba89cfd39&vjs=3 https://uk.indeed.com/rc/clk?jk=62dc4988a0e4f36b&fccid=0de01...
- nly 5y ago
  That second job (£70K senior) isn't bad. It's remote, so you could easily live somewhere dirt cheap and be better off than someone in London on £100K+ (the difference in take home pay is only £1450/mo, which could easily be the difference between a 2 bed at £2K/mo in London vs £550/mo in, say, Durham... also buying property outside London would be way more doable)
  - alexandargyurov 5y ago
    Imagine that (£70k senior), but instead of somewhere else in the UK, it's somewhere in Europe. In Munich, Germany (one of the priciest cities in Germany), the overall average rental price is €700 for a one-bed apartment[0]. Compared that to London, a one-bedroom apartment rent is going to cost you over £1000! €1178.48 euros![1] In Eastern Europe, you can have a very good quality of life for even cheaper. The only problem is the language barrier. I live in Sofia, Bulgaria, and pay €340 euros for a 2-bedroom flat in a pretty nice area of the city. A coffee costs around 2 лв (about €1), average pint around 3.80 лв (about €2). With a London software engineering salary, I save a drastic amount of money compared to London, and can usually afford to go to more restaurants, bars and outdoor activities (Love that I can ski just 20 mins away in the mountains!) I assume it would be similar for people who can work remotely for a San Francisco company but live in a different state? [0] https://www.expatrio.com/living-germany/costs-living-germany/costs-housing-germany https://www.expatrio.com/living-germany/costs-living-germany... [1] https://www.london.gov.uk/what-we-do/housing-and-land/improving-private-rented-sector/london-rents-map https://www.london.gov.uk/what-we-do/housing-and-land/improv...
    - zvr 5y ago
      Ahem. €700 in Munich gets you a room in shared accommodation. €1200 would still be a pretty good deal.
      - alexandargyurov 5y ago
        That's pretty similar to London, I wasn't aware Munich had got so expensive!
    - askonomm 5y ago
      Oh yeah! I work for a Swedish company and live in South America. Just for some perspective, I make quite a few times _more_ than the president where I live. Albeit this all comes at a cost of some things like lacking tech advancements and lots of corruption and things just not working as well as they do in EU, but overall, can save a ton of money all while not sacrificing life quality and being able to go out and do fun stuff without having to think about money much.
- aliswe 5y ago
  youre generally not supposed to make that much in socialist-ish countries, thats why youre taxed into oblivion after a certain point.
  - iso1210 5y ago
    High marginal tax rates in the UK are mainly hit at low wages (when you come off universal credit and get taxed at 75p on the pound, when you're repaying your student loan when you get an extra 9p/pound, when you have two kids and the loan at 50k when you get hit by 69p (about to be 72p) Once you're at say 200k, your marginal rate (as you'll have repaid your loan in the first couple of years) is 45% Someone on $500k in CA will pay $210k in taxes. Someone on $500k (£375k) in the UK will pay $220k (£165k). That's not a massive difference. Sources https://listentotaxman.com/375000 https://listentotaxman.com/375000 https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    > thats why youre taxed into oblivion after a certain point. Fun Fact: The nordic countries have a fairly flat tax rate (flatter than the U.S.) as well a 25% VAT and a low (20%) corporate tax rate. Most people don't realize this and would howl about regressivity if the U.S. introduced a 25% sales tax and lowered the top bracket to anyone earning more than $59K - which is Sweden's top bracket this year. So "beyond a certain point" for Sweden means "beyond $60K/year income".
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - huckr 5y ago
      You are right about the corporate tax, but for regular employees Sweden is one of the worst places to be in terms of taxes. Roughly half of the cost to the employer has to be paid in taxes (first withholding tax, then income tax). And then VAT, gas tax, alcohol tax, etc etc.
      - 5y ago
xupybd 5y ago
I think you underestimate the difference in pay across the western world.
nly 5y ago
It's definitely not feasible for most Software Engineers in Europe without extreme sacrifice, and fairly low expectations wrt to standard of living in retirement. Retiring at 50 is extremely risky in terms of sequence risk[0], so you'd want a low withdrawal rate on your pot. You're also likely to want a higher income initially while you're still young enough to enjoy it. So let's say your target is €2M for a €60K/yr income until you die, after a 25 year career. That gives you a couple years of fucking around after college / some bad years / gaps. To achieve that over a 25 year, investing in to a smooth 7%/yr bull market, you're going to need to invest €2,500/mo. That's something along the lines of €50K/yr of gross income (assuming 40% tax). Most software engineers in Europe probably don't even make €50K/yr... and we haven't even taken in to account taxes on gains, raising kids, buying property, or just enjoying life throughout your career! [0] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/sequence-risk.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/sequence-risk.asp
- robocat 5y ago
  Sequence risk matters the most in the first decade. So long as you have a backup plan where you can restart working, even at reduced rates, then you can protect yourself against sequence risk. Older and in an economic downturn means that finding work could be difficult, so one would probably need to keep the backup plan “warm”: for example continuing to do a day or two of consulting work or a non-technical role, preferably in an industry that is counter-cyclical.
- rsanek 5y ago
  The bond tent [0] is an elegant option to deal with sequence risk. It does mean though that you'll need to save a bit more to offset the years your money is out-of-market and not making those 7% returns. [0] https://www.kitces.com/blog/managing-portfolio-size-effect-with-bond-tent-in-retirement-red-zone/ https://www.kitces.com/blog/managing-portfolio-size-effect-w...
- franciscop 5y ago
  > So let's say your target is €2M for a €60K/yr income until you die > Most software engineers in Europe probably don't even make €50K/yr These two statements do not mix well together, if someone doesn't make 50k/yr it's unrealistic to expect to retire with 60k/year. Let's see more realistic numbers. You make 50k/yr, getting 35k after taxes. COL is around 25k, but that varies wildly; with a partner and each one's COL is lower, but with kids and it's higher. Of those 25k/yr, 15k are for rent. You save 830/month, which gives you 630k after 25y, or 25k/yr at a safe 4% withdrawal rate (gross, so not enough). But also let's say instead of paying rent you get a mortgage at that price, so when you own the place that is reduced drastically. Suddenly you find yourself with a COL of 12-15k/yr net, making 25k/yr gross from what you've saved previously. Sure it's tight, but these numbers are without extreme sacrifice that you mention. Get lucky and make 60-70k/yr, or find a cheaper place, or inherit something (a lot more common in EU that USA I'd think), and it now seems possible.
swix 5y ago
Don't just live for the future. Life happens now, not at retirement. In my experience talking to people who has retired, many are bored and are struggling with purpose. Sure, there are certainly many exceptions. I just mean, don't forget to live right now, this is it, it happens now.
NaturalPhallacy 5y ago
And then the student loan payment hits. Graduated in 2004 (right after the dotcom crash) with $70K in debt, mostly private loans. I didn't get that usurious gorilla off my back until 2014. In hindsight I was dramatically underpaid the first 5 years, but still. I made that financial decision at 18. First in my family to graduate college. Nobody knew better to tell me not to do that. A lot of other people are in the same boat.

I feel like as a software engineer, in most of the western world, if you actually save money (and invest!), and don't make stupid financial decisions, you can probably retire by 50.

jspaetzel 5y ago

If you've been doing it for most of your career, certainly. But a lot of people start their careers later or make dumb decisions with money for a chunk of the time, those things can totally push retirement well past 50.

askonomm 5y ago
For sure! I was merely saying that it's not a unicorn, it _can_ actually be achieved with high probability and lots of effort, as opposed to being flat out impossible for the minimum wage workers, for example.

iso1210 5y ago

If you're pulling a 6 figure salary then sure. If you've been earning on a typical career - say £25k/yr starting in your mid 20s, £35k-£45k through your 30s, perhaps getting upto £60k by the time you're into your 40s, you won't have saved enough to pull even £20k a year for a few decades. https://uk.indeed.com/company/Precision-Microdrives/jobs/Software-Engineer-01b57b2204ac4840?fccid=ac2e4d8cef116119&vjs=3 https://uk.indeed.com/company/Precision-Microdrives/jobs/Sof... https://uk.indeed.com/rc/clk?jk=62dc4988a0e4f36b&fccid=0de01f2ba89cfd39&vjs=3 https://uk.indeed.com/rc/clk?jk=62dc4988a0e4f36b&fccid=0de01...

nly 5y ago
That second job (£70K senior) isn't bad. It's remote, so you could easily live somewhere dirt cheap and be better off than someone in London on £100K+ (the difference in take home pay is only £1450/mo, which could easily be the difference between a 2 bed at £2K/mo in London vs £550/mo in, say, Durham... also buying property outside London would be way more doable)
- alexandargyurov 5y ago
  Imagine that (£70k senior), but instead of somewhere else in the UK, it's somewhere in Europe. In Munich, Germany (one of the priciest cities in Germany), the overall average rental price is €700 for a one-bed apartment[0]. Compared that to London, a one-bedroom apartment rent is going to cost you over £1000! €1178.48 euros![1] In Eastern Europe, you can have a very good quality of life for even cheaper. The only problem is the language barrier. I live in Sofia, Bulgaria, and pay €340 euros for a 2-bedroom flat in a pretty nice area of the city. A coffee costs around 2 лв (about €1), average pint around 3.80 лв (about €2). With a London software engineering salary, I save a drastic amount of money compared to London, and can usually afford to go to more restaurants, bars and outdoor activities (Love that I can ski just 20 mins away in the mountains!) I assume it would be similar for people who can work remotely for a San Francisco company but live in a different state? [0] https://www.expatrio.com/living-germany/costs-living-germany/costs-housing-germany https://www.expatrio.com/living-germany/costs-living-germany... [1] https://www.london.gov.uk/what-we-do/housing-and-land/improving-private-rented-sector/london-rents-map https://www.london.gov.uk/what-we-do/housing-and-land/improv...
  - zvr 5y ago
    Ahem. €700 in Munich gets you a room in shared accommodation. €1200 would still be a pretty good deal.
    - alexandargyurov 5y ago
      That's pretty similar to London, I wasn't aware Munich had got so expensive!
  - askonomm 5y ago
    Oh yeah! I work for a Swedish company and live in South America. Just for some perspective, I make quite a few times _more_ than the president where I live. Albeit this all comes at a cost of some things like lacking tech advancements and lots of corruption and things just not working as well as they do in EU, but overall, can save a ton of money all while not sacrificing life quality and being able to go out and do fun stuff without having to think about money much.
aliswe 5y ago
youre generally not supposed to make that much in socialist-ish countries, thats why youre taxed into oblivion after a certain point.
- iso1210 5y ago
  High marginal tax rates in the UK are mainly hit at low wages (when you come off universal credit and get taxed at 75p on the pound, when you're repaying your student loan when you get an extra 9p/pound, when you have two kids and the loan at 50k when you get hit by 69p (about to be 72p) Once you're at say 200k, your marginal rate (as you'll have repaid your loan in the first couple of years) is 45% Someone on $500k in CA will pay $210k in taxes. Someone on $500k (£375k) in the UK will pay $220k (£165k). That's not a massive difference. Sources https://listentotaxman.com/375000 https://listentotaxman.com/375000 https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  > thats why youre taxed into oblivion after a certain point. Fun Fact: The nordic countries have a fairly flat tax rate (flatter than the U.S.) as well a 25% VAT and a low (20%) corporate tax rate. Most people don't realize this and would howl about regressivity if the U.S. introduced a 25% sales tax and lowered the top bracket to anyone earning more than $59K - which is Sweden's top bracket this year. So "beyond a certain point" for Sweden means "beyond $60K/year income".
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - huckr 5y ago
    You are right about the corporate tax, but for regular employees Sweden is one of the worst places to be in terms of taxes. Roughly half of the cost to the employer has to be paid in taxes (first withholding tax, then income tax). And then VAT, gas tax, alcohol tax, etc etc.
    - 5y ago

xupybd 5y ago

I think you underestimate the difference in pay across the western world.

nly 5y ago

It's definitely not feasible for most Software Engineers in Europe without extreme sacrifice, and fairly low expectations wrt to standard of living in retirement. Retiring at 50 is extremely risky in terms of sequence risk[0], so you'd want a low withdrawal rate on your pot. You're also likely to want a higher income initially while you're still young enough to enjoy it. So let's say your target is €2M for a €60K/yr income until you die, after a 25 year career. That gives you a couple years of fucking around after college / some bad years / gaps. To achieve that over a 25 year, investing in to a smooth 7%/yr bull market, you're going to need to invest €2,500/mo. That's something along the lines of €50K/yr of gross income (assuming 40% tax). Most software engineers in Europe probably don't even make €50K/yr... and we haven't even taken in to account taxes on gains, raising kids, buying property, or just enjoying life throughout your career! [0] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/sequence-risk.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/sequence-risk.asp

robocat 5y ago
Sequence risk matters the most in the first decade. So long as you have a backup plan where you can restart working, even at reduced rates, then you can protect yourself against sequence risk. Older and in an economic downturn means that finding work could be difficult, so one would probably need to keep the backup plan “warm”: for example continuing to do a day or two of consulting work or a non-technical role, preferably in an industry that is counter-cyclical.
rsanek 5y ago
The bond tent [0] is an elegant option to deal with sequence risk. It does mean though that you'll need to save a bit more to offset the years your money is out-of-market and not making those 7% returns. [0] https://www.kitces.com/blog/managing-portfolio-size-effect-with-bond-tent-in-retirement-red-zone/ https://www.kitces.com/blog/managing-portfolio-size-effect-w...
franciscop 5y ago
> So let's say your target is €2M for a €60K/yr income until you die > Most software engineers in Europe probably don't even make €50K/yr These two statements do not mix well together, if someone doesn't make 50k/yr it's unrealistic to expect to retire with 60k/year. Let's see more realistic numbers. You make 50k/yr, getting 35k after taxes. COL is around 25k, but that varies wildly; with a partner and each one's COL is lower, but with kids and it's higher. Of those 25k/yr, 15k are for rent. You save 830/month, which gives you 630k after 25y, or 25k/yr at a safe 4% withdrawal rate (gross, so not enough). But also let's say instead of paying rent you get a mortgage at that price, so when you own the place that is reduced drastically. Suddenly you find yourself with a COL of 12-15k/yr net, making 25k/yr gross from what you've saved previously. Sure it's tight, but these numbers are without extreme sacrifice that you mention. Get lucky and make 60-70k/yr, or find a cheaper place, or inherit something (a lot more common in EU that USA I'd think), and it now seems possible.

swix 5y ago

Don't just live for the future. Life happens now, not at retirement. In my experience talking to people who has retired, many are bored and are struggling with purpose. Sure, there are certainly many exceptions. I just mean, don't forget to live right now, this is it, it happens now.

NaturalPhallacy 5y ago

And then the student loan payment hits. Graduated in 2004 (right after the dotcom crash) with $70K in debt, mostly private loans. I didn't get that usurious gorilla off my back until 2014. In hindsight I was dramatically underpaid the first 5 years, but still. I made that financial decision at 18. First in my family to graduate college. Nobody knew better to tell me not to do that. A lot of other people are in the same boat.