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So, SpaceX started taking pre-orders for Starlink in India before they had license to operate Starlink in India. I understand India being upset, but a pre-orde

So, SpaceX started taking pre-orders for Starlink in India before they had license to operate Starlink in India. I understand India being upset, but a pre-order is not the same as service. SpaceX is not going to offer service in India until its licenses are approved. But what's the harm in taking refundable pre-orders?

basisword 5y ago
They’re taking people’s money and promising a service they don’t yet know they will even be able to provide (e.g. if they don’t receive the license). That’s dishonest. It’s not a preorder in this case - more of a kickstarter.
- legolas2412 5y ago
  On par with what Elon musk does for FSD. American regulators do not care.
- jessriedel 5y ago
  All pre-orders have the possibility of not being fulfilled. SpaceX is a lot more capitalized than a random start-up or a kickstarter, so they are significantly more likely than a typical pre-order of delivering the product and of issuing refunds if they can't deliver. So I think you just have to have an objections to the vast majority of pre-orders in general if you have a problem with this. And if so, focusing on Starlink is clickbait and/or disingenuous.
  - basisword 5y ago
    >> SpaceX is a lot more capitalized than a random start-up or a kickstarter, so they are significantly more likely than a typical pre-order of delivering the product In this case that’s not true. They don’t have control over whether or not the government approves them. A preorder should be deliverable bar some extreme unpredictable circumstance occurring.
- camhart 5y ago
  I disagree. Their product is already functioning. It's not a kickstarter. How is this dishonest? The only dishonest thing would be the government not allowing it for some unethical reason.
  - teh_infallible 5y ago
    From the Indian government’s point of view, taking preorders might be seen as kind of a snub, like, “Your approval is just a rubber stamp we will get eventually.”
    - shlurpy 5y ago
      Caring about this sort of thing sounds like some toxic masculinity grandstanding childishness. So it makes sense that politicans would.
      - pm90 5y ago
        It’s in any Governments interest to vet new technology or services from multinational corporations before they are allowed to take money from its citizenry. SpaceX is not Governed by Indian law; so it’s pretty reasonable for them to be extra conservative when dealing with new kinds of services.
        shlurpy 5y ago
        That's sensible, I agree. My response was to "feeling snubbed for allowing preorders", which is childish.
      - phatfish 5y ago
        It seems more like a publicity stunt that Elon can use for childish "grandstanding" on Twitter; sometime in the future, if not already.
    - camhart 5y ago
      It should be that way... governments shouldn't be picking favorites or holding out for bribes.
thecleaner 5y ago
The problem is with the order amount. $99 is a lot of money (Google pegs it at 7.4k INR) and anyways its a large sum even for an American with low income. The problem with pre-orders is the amount of money that gets locked. The government has to enforce its regulations via the proper channels and doesn't want to be in a position where they ask Space-X to refund the money whereupon they might sue and cause trouble at international levels. Informing the people that they haven't received their license is okay I think as it gives the government breathing room to have the same rules for everyone since they can always justify by saying "we told you so" and I think that's fair. Secondly, the Indian government is under no obligation to deal with free-trade nonsense here. Space-X cannot and does not employ any Indians, so giving them an operators license and access to consumer base without actually being able to create jobs or deep expertise locally makes zero sense. In such deals, in the end, the only technological expertise that flows is crappy admin jobs and frankly no country should take such a deal.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  The money isn't "locked" if the deposit is fully refundable at any time, with the only thing you lose being your place in line. And how is free trade "nonsense"? Do you think protectionism is a good thing?
  - pm90 5y ago
    What recourse do Indian citizens have if SpaceX decides to not honor its agreement? They cannot be sued in Indian courts. It’s entirely justified to be extremely skeptical. > Do you think protectionism is a good thing? Yes, absolutely it is.
    - gaadd33 5y ago
      Why can't SpaceX be sued in Indian courts? Does India have a law prohibiting that? In America you can sue a foreign entity and if it's found that the court has jurisdiction and you win then you can get a judgement against any assets the entity has in the country. I believe this has been used to seize a skyscraper in Manhattan owned by Iran among other things in the past.

basisword 5y ago

They’re taking people’s money and promising a service they don’t yet know they will even be able to provide (e.g. if they don’t receive the license). That’s dishonest. It’s not a preorder in this case - more of a kickstarter.

legolas2412 5y ago
On par with what Elon musk does for FSD. American regulators do not care.
jessriedel 5y ago
All pre-orders have the possibility of not being fulfilled. SpaceX is a lot more capitalized than a random start-up or a kickstarter, so they are significantly more likely than a typical pre-order of delivering the product and of issuing refunds if they can't deliver. So I think you just have to have an objections to the vast majority of pre-orders in general if you have a problem with this. And if so, focusing on Starlink is clickbait and/or disingenuous.
- basisword 5y ago
  >> SpaceX is a lot more capitalized than a random start-up or a kickstarter, so they are significantly more likely than a typical pre-order of delivering the product In this case that’s not true. They don’t have control over whether or not the government approves them. A preorder should be deliverable bar some extreme unpredictable circumstance occurring.
camhart 5y ago
I disagree. Their product is already functioning. It's not a kickstarter. How is this dishonest? The only dishonest thing would be the government not allowing it for some unethical reason.
- teh_infallible 5y ago
  From the Indian government’s point of view, taking preorders might be seen as kind of a snub, like, “Your approval is just a rubber stamp we will get eventually.”
  - shlurpy 5y ago
    Caring about this sort of thing sounds like some toxic masculinity grandstanding childishness. So it makes sense that politicans would.
    - pm90 5y ago
      It’s in any Governments interest to vet new technology or services from multinational corporations before they are allowed to take money from its citizenry. SpaceX is not Governed by Indian law; so it’s pretty reasonable for them to be extra conservative when dealing with new kinds of services.
      - shlurpy 5y ago
        That's sensible, I agree. My response was to "feeling snubbed for allowing preorders", which is childish.
    - phatfish 5y ago
      It seems more like a publicity stunt that Elon can use for childish "grandstanding" on Twitter; sometime in the future, if not already.
  - camhart 5y ago
    It should be that way... governments shouldn't be picking favorites or holding out for bribes.

thecleaner 5y ago

The problem is with the order amount. $99 is a lot of money (Google pegs it at 7.4k INR) and anyways its a large sum even for an American with low income. The problem with pre-orders is the amount of money that gets locked. The government has to enforce its regulations via the proper channels and doesn't want to be in a position where they ask Space-X to refund the money whereupon they might sue and cause trouble at international levels. Informing the people that they haven't received their license is okay I think as it gives the government breathing room to have the same rules for everyone since they can always justify by saying "we told you so" and I think that's fair. Secondly, the Indian government is under no obligation to deal with free-trade nonsense here. Space-X cannot and does not employ any Indians, so giving them an operators license and access to consumer base without actually being able to create jobs or deep expertise locally makes zero sense. In such deals, in the end, the only technological expertise that flows is crappy admin jobs and frankly no country should take such a deal.

josephcsible 5y ago
The money isn't "locked" if the deposit is fully refundable at any time, with the only thing you lose being your place in line. And how is free trade "nonsense"? Do you think protectionism is a good thing?
- pm90 5y ago
  What recourse do Indian citizens have if SpaceX decides to not honor its agreement? They cannot be sued in Indian courts. It’s entirely justified to be extremely skeptical. > Do you think protectionism is a good thing? Yes, absolutely it is.
  - gaadd33 5y ago
    Why can't SpaceX be sued in Indian courts? Does India have a law prohibiting that? In America you can sue a foreign entity and if it's found that the court has jurisdiction and you win then you can get a judgement against any assets the entity has in the country. I believe this has been used to seize a skyscraper in Manhattan owned by Iran among other things in the past.