4 ms·

The Forest People

56 points by rsj_hn 5y ago

ericffr 5y ago
Fascinating article, on a part of the world that gets largely ignored
gh0std3v 5y ago
> The expansion of the ‘Green New Deal’ and the rise of ‘renewable’ industrial technologies may be the death knell for these archaic and peaceful people. Make no mistake, these green initiatives – electric vehicles, wind turbines, solar batteries – these are actively destroying the last remaining strongholds of biodiversity on the planet. The future designs on the DRC include vast hydroelectric dams and intensive agriculture, stripping away the final refuges of the world. Now, more than ever, the Mbuti and other Pygmy peoples need our solidarity, an act which can be as simple as not buying that next iPhone This seems like a vast oversimplification by the author. Kurzgesagt made a video explaining how climate change is a multifaceted problem; that no solution will make everyone happy. I'm not trying to undermine the plight of the Mbuti people, but "not buying that next iPhone" is not going to solve the political, economic, and social strife that is present in the DRC. Also, the claim that green initiatives are "destroying the last remaining strongholds of biodiversity on the planet" overlooks the tradeoff in using green energy sources over fossil fuels. Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiw6_JakZFc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiw6_JakZFc
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
DFHippie 5y ago
The kicker is at the bottom: > The expansion of the ‘Green New Deal’ and the rise of ‘renewable’ industrial technologies may be the death knell for these archaic and peaceful people. Make no mistake, these green initiatives – electric vehicles, wind turbines, solar batteries – these are actively destroying the last remaining strongholds of biodiversity on the planet. This reads like so much contrarian trollery since time immemorial. Jonas Salk is exploiting children! The abolitionists are actually harming slaves! The vaccines are actually a nefarious controlling plot and the pandemic is a sham! Basically, the trick is to say people who claim to care about the problem are actually the source of the problem. This isn't to say that cobalt extraction is harmless or that this harm is disconnected from the global desire to use low-carbon mechanisms to power the economy, but I sincerely doubt this citation-free article portrays the situation accurately. For one thing, the Green New Deal is a purely US thing, and it isn't a particular piece of legislation that has stood any chance of being enacted under that name since the Democratic primaries (and not even then, though at least then it had proponents who stood some chance of gaining significant political power), so singling this out as the demon to fear is to single our environmental action in general. Insulating your home!? What about the pigmies! Buying milk in returnable glass bottles!? Oppressor! Going vegetarian to reduce your carbon footprint!? You cannibalistic monster! I sincerely doubt the WWF is the sole funder of park rangers, or that a desire they might have expressed to remove people from areas of biological diversity is targeted at pigmies rather than, say, illegal logging or mining operations. I cannot believe that "addressing climate change and working to preserve the rain forest are the chief threats to pigmies" is an argument offered in good faith. I'm pretty sure the pigmies would suffer more and faster if the loggers, miners, bushmeat trade, and climate change are allowed to roll along unstopped.
- AlbertCory 5y ago
  The "kicker": your "doubts" don't get any more credible when you say "I sincerely doubt" and "I cannot believe." So you don't like his conclusion that "green" technologies may be harmful? Thus you "doubt" the whole piece. Smart! Also you get to compare it to other things you don't like. Motte-bailey much?
  - DFHippie 5y ago
    You think my doubts aren't credible? What does that mean? You think I'm lying about my own doubts? I'm not at all troubled by the thought that green technologies might be harmful (well, I'd rather they weren't, but it seems obvious that they are, though also obviously good in other ways). I'm "troubled" by his pinning all the troubles of the Mbuti and so forth on green technology.
    - AlbertCory 5y ago
      No, sorry, I meant that your "doubts" about his article don't gain any power from the "sincerely" modifier. I reread this, and I did not, at all, get the impression that he was "pinning all the troubles of the Mbuti and so forth on green technology." That is your misreading of it. He says that the pygmies have been horribly persecuted, and that the Green movement will make it much worse. Are you doubting that? Secondly, your statement about how the WWF is not solely responsible for various evils is pretty disingenuous. Who cares if it's "solely"? They're a huge charitable organization that covers itself in virtue, and here they are committing an evil. Lastly, the Web has given people, including you apparently, the impression that everything has to have a "source." How many publications do you think there are about the pygmy tribes deep in the Congo? There's a legitimate question about whether this guy is credible, and we'd resolve that by looking at this publication and its reputation for probity, as well as the author's. Saying it's "unsourced" is something the Wikipedia pedants would do.
- webwielder2 5y ago
  Yeah, completely bizarre conclusion with no substantiation. What is the agenda there?
pphysch 5y ago
> In particular the World Wildlife Fund (WWF) has been lobbying to convert the Messok Dja, a particularly biodiverse area of rainforest in the Republic of Congo, in a National Park, devoid of human presence. This aggressive act of clearance is rooted in the idea that a ‘wilderness’ area should not contain any people, thus rendering the original inhabitants of the forests as intruders, invaders and despoilers of ‘Nature’. There are other examples of this sort of "ecofascism", namely the "Half Earth" proposal wherein half the Earth's landmass should be dedicated to human-free "nature". Of course, no one will willingly give up their home, so this is tantamount to ethnically cleansing those regions--Africa and the Global South--that are geopolitically weak so that the wealthy Western nations can maintain their decadent quality of life.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > the "Half Earth" proposal wherein half the Earth's landmass should be dedicated to human-free "nature". Of course, no one will willingly give up their home, so this is tantamount to ethnically cleansing those regions--Africa and the Global South--that are geopolitically weak so that the wealthy Western nations can maintain their decadent quality of life. Not quite. Western quality of life can't be improved by banning the exploitation of natural resources in Africa. Rather, what's proposed is to ethnically cleanse the reserved regions so that Western nations can advance an ideological goal that lowers their own quality of life.
  - dillondoyle 5y ago
    Why can't our lives/the world be improved by banning the exploitation of natural resources in Africa? i'm constantly reading news of horrible spills from corruption and lack or regulation in the region. Plus all the carbon that contributes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANssSLjSXN0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANssSLjSXN0 https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/nigerias-aiteo-reports-extremely-high-order-oil-spill-well-2021-11-10/ https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/nigerias-aiteo-reports-...
    - bjelkeman-again 5y ago
georgeoliver 5y ago
I can't say I have the knowledge to argue the points of this article either way, but it sadly reinforces in my mind the idea that the arc of the technological universe is long, and it bends toward destruction.

56 points by rsj_hn 5y ago

Fascinating article, on a part of the world that gets largely ignored

> The expansion of the ‘Green New Deal’ and the rise of ‘renewable’ industrial technologies may be the death knell for these archaic and peaceful people. Make no mistake, these green initiatives – electric vehicles, wind turbines, solar batteries – these are actively destroying the last remaining strongholds of biodiversity on the planet. The future designs on the DRC include vast hydroelectric dams and intensive agriculture, stripping away the final refuges of the world. Now, more than ever, the Mbuti and other Pygmy peoples need our solidarity, an act which can be as simple as not buying that next iPhone This seems like a vast oversimplification by the author. Kurzgesagt made a video explaining how climate change is a multifaceted problem; that no solution will make everyone happy. I'm not trying to undermine the plight of the Mbuti people, but "not buying that next iPhone" is not going to solve the political, economic, and social strife that is present in the DRC. Also, the claim that green initiatives are "destroying the last remaining strongholds of biodiversity on the planet" overlooks the tradeoff in using green energy sources over fossil fuels. Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiw6_JakZFc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiw6_JakZFc

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

DFHippie 5y ago

The kicker is at the bottom: > The expansion of the ‘Green New Deal’ and the rise of ‘renewable’ industrial technologies may be the death knell for these archaic and peaceful people. Make no mistake, these green initiatives – electric vehicles, wind turbines, solar batteries – these are actively destroying the last remaining strongholds of biodiversity on the planet. This reads like so much contrarian trollery since time immemorial. Jonas Salk is exploiting children! The abolitionists are actually harming slaves! The vaccines are actually a nefarious controlling plot and the pandemic is a sham! Basically, the trick is to say people who claim to care about the problem are actually the source of the problem. This isn't to say that cobalt extraction is harmless or that this harm is disconnected from the global desire to use low-carbon mechanisms to power the economy, but I sincerely doubt this citation-free article portrays the situation accurately. For one thing, the Green New Deal is a purely US thing, and it isn't a particular piece of legislation that has stood any chance of being enacted under that name since the Democratic primaries (and not even then, though at least then it had proponents who stood some chance of gaining significant political power), so singling this out as the demon to fear is to single our environmental action in general. Insulating your home!? What about the pigmies! Buying milk in returnable glass bottles!? Oppressor! Going vegetarian to reduce your carbon footprint!? You cannibalistic monster! I sincerely doubt the WWF is the sole funder of park rangers, or that a desire they might have expressed to remove people from areas of biological diversity is targeted at pigmies rather than, say, illegal logging or mining operations. I cannot believe that "addressing climate change and working to preserve the rain forest are the chief threats to pigmies" is an argument offered in good faith. I'm pretty sure the pigmies would suffer more and faster if the loggers, miners, bushmeat trade, and climate change are allowed to roll along unstopped.

AlbertCory 5y ago
The "kicker": your "doubts" don't get any more credible when you say "I sincerely doubt" and "I cannot believe." So you don't like his conclusion that "green" technologies may be harmful? Thus you "doubt" the whole piece. Smart! Also you get to compare it to other things you don't like. Motte-bailey much?
- DFHippie 5y ago
  You think my doubts aren't credible? What does that mean? You think I'm lying about my own doubts? I'm not at all troubled by the thought that green technologies might be harmful (well, I'd rather they weren't, but it seems obvious that they are, though also obviously good in other ways). I'm "troubled" by his pinning all the troubles of the Mbuti and so forth on green technology.
  - AlbertCory 5y ago
    No, sorry, I meant that your "doubts" about his article don't gain any power from the "sincerely" modifier. I reread this, and I did not, at all, get the impression that he was "pinning all the troubles of the Mbuti and so forth on green technology." That is your misreading of it. He says that the pygmies have been horribly persecuted, and that the Green movement will make it much worse. Are you doubting that? Secondly, your statement about how the WWF is not solely responsible for various evils is pretty disingenuous. Who cares if it's "solely"? They're a huge charitable organization that covers itself in virtue, and here they are committing an evil. Lastly, the Web has given people, including you apparently, the impression that everything has to have a "source." How many publications do you think there are about the pygmy tribes deep in the Congo? There's a legitimate question about whether this guy is credible, and we'd resolve that by looking at this publication and its reputation for probity, as well as the author's. Saying it's "unsourced" is something the Wikipedia pedants would do.
webwielder2 5y ago
Yeah, completely bizarre conclusion with no substantiation. What is the agenda there?

pphysch 5y ago

> In particular the World Wildlife Fund (WWF) has been lobbying to convert the Messok Dja, a particularly biodiverse area of rainforest in the Republic of Congo, in a National Park, devoid of human presence. This aggressive act of clearance is rooted in the idea that a ‘wilderness’ area should not contain any people, thus rendering the original inhabitants of the forests as intruders, invaders and despoilers of ‘Nature’. There are other examples of this sort of "ecofascism", namely the "Half Earth" proposal wherein half the Earth's landmass should be dedicated to human-free "nature". Of course, no one will willingly give up their home, so this is tantamount to ethnically cleansing those regions--Africa and the Global South--that are geopolitically weak so that the wealthy Western nations can maintain their decadent quality of life.

thaumasiotes 5y ago
> the "Half Earth" proposal wherein half the Earth's landmass should be dedicated to human-free "nature". Of course, no one will willingly give up their home, so this is tantamount to ethnically cleansing those regions--Africa and the Global South--that are geopolitically weak so that the wealthy Western nations can maintain their decadent quality of life. Not quite. Western quality of life can't be improved by banning the exploitation of natural resources in Africa. Rather, what's proposed is to ethnically cleanse the reserved regions so that Western nations can advance an ideological goal that lowers their own quality of life.
- dillondoyle 5y ago
  Why can't our lives/the world be improved by banning the exploitation of natural resources in Africa? i'm constantly reading news of horrible spills from corruption and lack or regulation in the region. Plus all the carbon that contributes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANssSLjSXN0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANssSLjSXN0 https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/nigerias-aiteo-reports-extremely-high-order-oil-spill-well-2021-11-10/ https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/nigerias-aiteo-reports-...
  - bjelkeman-again 5y ago

georgeoliver 5y ago

I can't say I have the knowledge to argue the points of this article either way, but it sadly reinforces in my mind the idea that the arc of the technological universe is long, and it bends toward destruction.