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> my borders and carrier are defined by Engineer Managers, who are usually less experienced in engineering and leadership topics than I am. Why is reporting to

> my borders and carrier are defined by Engineer Managers, who are usually less experienced in engineering and leadership topics than I am. Why is reporting to someone less experienced than you undesirable?

dcow 5y ago
The power inversion doesn't work out. They wield the power but you wield the knowledge and experience. It’s a constant battle trying to get them to take you seriously. You might as well just do it yourself. Instead, report to a VP or director. They may not listen all the time but that’s their domain. And because you report that way, the other managers are more likely to listen because you are on the same tier. Plus you get a hard separation so the inexperienced managers don’t boss you around and you can work on work on what you need to. Some dorectors like having an engineer or 5 in the pocket. It doesn’t always work this way but that’s my general impression.
- mavelikara 5y ago
  When senior engineers adopt this attitude, they are implicitly supporting aegism. Younger engineering managers are forced into a position where they have to pass on resumes of older engineers. Damned if they do, damned if they don't!
  - epicureanideal 5y ago
    Only if the young manager is planning on resisting all the advice shared by the more experienced engineer.
    - mavelikara 5y ago
      No. That is not how I read this thread. My understanding is that the _possibility_ of the young manager rejecting advice is enough for older engineers to not consider positions reporting to those managers.
      - dcow 5y ago
        I don’t think I said possibility. And experience isn’t always correlated with age. I’ve seen older managers that just entered the industry after doing a python bootcamp, for instance. I wouldn't have any problem with a younger manager if they knew their craft, personally. Unfortunately too often I’ve seen companies pull in “managers” from unrelated fields and/or with little to no technical experience. Manager I/II equaling staff or senior engineer on the totem pole is what I’m calling out.
        mavelikara 5y ago
        > I’ve seen older managers that just entered the industry after doing a python bootcamp, for instance. > ... > Unfortunately too often I’ve seen companies pull in “managers” from unrelated fields and/or with little to no technical experience. I haven't seen either of these, so my comment was based on that. In my experience, first-line EMs are always senior engineers who choose to take the manager career track. In such firms, and only in such firms, I don't find anything wrong in Manager Is being equal to senior/staff engineers. What I am calling out, if you can call it that, is that senior engineers refusing to report to anyone less than C-suite or VPs is doing the profession a disservice. People manager don't grow on trees - they have to grown and trained within the cohort of people practicing the profession. We need to collectively train these junior managers to be able to work with more senior engineers. Senior engineers who don't want to take on people management duties will have to accept that there is a likelihood that they will eventually report to someone less experienced in some facets of the profession. Insisting that the company find a people manager who is deemed worthwhile for you to report to is spreading the stereotype that senior engineers are difficult to manage, resulting in ageism in hiring.
        dcow 5y ago
        Sure but we're talking about staff/principle engineer, not senior. Assuming there is a meaningful difference (which is not always the case) then it's a bit odd for principle engineer to report to senior engineer/manager-in-training, no?

dcow 5y ago

The power inversion doesn't work out. They wield the power but you wield the knowledge and experience. It’s a constant battle trying to get them to take you seriously. You might as well just do it yourself. Instead, report to a VP or director. They may not listen all the time but that’s their domain. And because you report that way, the other managers are more likely to listen because you are on the same tier. Plus you get a hard separation so the inexperienced managers don’t boss you around and you can work on work on what you need to. Some dorectors like having an engineer or 5 in the pocket. It doesn’t always work this way but that’s my general impression.

mavelikara 5y ago
When senior engineers adopt this attitude, they are implicitly supporting aegism. Younger engineering managers are forced into a position where they have to pass on resumes of older engineers. Damned if they do, damned if they don't!
- epicureanideal 5y ago
  Only if the young manager is planning on resisting all the advice shared by the more experienced engineer.
  - mavelikara 5y ago
    No. That is not how I read this thread. My understanding is that the _possibility_ of the young manager rejecting advice is enough for older engineers to not consider positions reporting to those managers.
    - dcow 5y ago
      I don’t think I said possibility. And experience isn’t always correlated with age. I’ve seen older managers that just entered the industry after doing a python bootcamp, for instance. I wouldn't have any problem with a younger manager if they knew their craft, personally. Unfortunately too often I’ve seen companies pull in “managers” from unrelated fields and/or with little to no technical experience. Manager I/II equaling staff or senior engineer on the totem pole is what I’m calling out.
      - mavelikara 5y ago
        > I’ve seen older managers that just entered the industry after doing a python bootcamp, for instance. > ... > Unfortunately too often I’ve seen companies pull in “managers” from unrelated fields and/or with little to no technical experience. I haven't seen either of these, so my comment was based on that. In my experience, first-line EMs are always senior engineers who choose to take the manager career track. In such firms, and only in such firms, I don't find anything wrong in Manager Is being equal to senior/staff engineers. What I am calling out, if you can call it that, is that senior engineers refusing to report to anyone less than C-suite or VPs is doing the profession a disservice. People manager don't grow on trees - they have to grown and trained within the cohort of people practicing the profession. We need to collectively train these junior managers to be able to work with more senior engineers. Senior engineers who don't want to take on people management duties will have to accept that there is a likelihood that they will eventually report to someone less experienced in some facets of the profession. Insisting that the company find a people manager who is deemed worthwhile for you to report to is spreading the stereotype that senior engineers are difficult to manage, resulting in ageism in hiring.
        dcow 5y ago
        Sure but we're talking about staff/principle engineer, not senior. Assuming there is a meaningful difference (which is not always the case) then it's a bit odd for principle engineer to report to senior engineer/manager-in-training, no?