4 ms·
> The point of pragmatism is that a philosophical problem or distinction is only real to the extent that it has consequences—and those consequences are, in fact
by motohagiography 5y ago
> The point of pragmatism is that a philosophical problem or distinction is only real to the extent that it has consequences—and those consequences are, in fact, the meaning of the problem or distinction. Dissolving those questions, casting doubt on the existence of any such consequences, was a frequent move by James and Dewey and a favorite move of Rorty’s.
It reads like an argument technique and not a tool for illuminating truth about the world. Just in the previous paragraph, he takes
all the meaningful value of philosophy off the table and puts it out of scope:
> Pragmatism as Anti-Authoritarianism speaks to and for those who, living in a post-positivist, Wittgensteinian world, would never ask themselves questions like: “Do objects really have the properties they seem to, or are they only appearances? How can we know?” “What is the essence of a human being? Soul? Personality? Genetic code?” “Is mind material or immaterial?” “Are some actions intrinsically right or wrong, regardless of all consequences (or none) to all parties concerned, anywhere in the universe, in saecula saeculorum?” “Can an act be both caused and free?” “Can something be objectively good even if no one anywhere thinks it so?” “Can a proposition be true if no one exists?”
Maybe I'm misreading, and I'm going to go way out on a limb here with my reaction to it. It's just more dialectic materialism, where to even start a conversation with someone using it, you have to accept ontological premises that are necessarily absurd. To another commenter here, it does indeed sound like Poppers paraphrase, which is a thought terminating cliche that protects lazy minds from dissonance. When inclusion of authors and texts from unexpected* places was transgressive it added perspective, but now, it's just designed to homogenize and liquify culture to produce nihilistic ideologues who can't be trusted as fellow citizens to share a recourse to truth.
Personally, I think secular philosophers were tricked into giving up the one tool or razor that would have kept them from drowning in the hall of mirrors flooded with bullshit that their field has become, and that is the question, "is this philosophy, ideology, or critical theory designed to deceive and subordinate us to others, and if so, who, how, and to what end?"
The beauty of it is you can apply it to religion easily, even though the result is pretty clumsy, but it gets interesting when someone like this Rorty takes all the meaningful questions off the table first, as you should feel the hairs on your neck stand up, because you are being rounded on by an intellectual predator.
If you just take a cryptanalyst or a hackers mindset to it and ask, "am I being deceived?" the whole secular dialectic materialist edifice crumbles. I would argue that this question is also necessarily theistic, as it presupposes truth, and a belief in truth is proof of a belief in something divine by which truth can be measured or compared. That is how fragile secular presuppositions are. As in, boom, you just found out you belive in god and that mythical evil is just plain old deception, just what the crazies have been banging on about for millennia. For many that's kind of an oh shit moment, because if that's true, some other things become very urgent.
Nobody articulates this stuff, but it's the underlying schism in the culture, where though we might see barberous religious fundamentalists filling the heads of children with hate, what these people really believe is that there is truth, and they are innoculating kids against being deceived by thinkers who begin by taking truth off the table, since once you've done that, nothing has fixed meaning or consequences, and all that's left is a material power struggle.
While I don't need for anyone to agree with my views, they should at least try to understand that the irreconcilable difference between conservatives and liberals reduces to a fixed belief in truth. It's the only meaningful question, and based on a light reading of the article, this Rorty guy seems like he's just producing more deceptive misdirections.
To me, the ideas in the article sounded like just more NINO: Nihilisim-In-Nihilism-Out.
- Aurelius3 5y ago>To another commenter here, it does indeed sound like Poppers paraphrase, which is a thought terminating cliche that protects lazy minds from dissonance. When inclusion of authors and texts from unexpected* places was transgressive it added perspective, but now, it's just designed to homogenize and liquify culture to produce nihilistic ideologues who can't be trusted as fellow citizens to share a recourse to truth. I have nothing to add, just want to say that you hit the nail on the head and this sentence in particular is enlightening.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago>>> Personally, I think secular philosophers were tricked into giving up the one tool or razor that would have kept them from drowning in the hall of mirrors flooded with bullshit that their field has become, and that is the question, "is this philosophy, ideology, or critical theory designed to deceive and subordinate us to others, and if so, who, how, and to what end?" ... If you just take a cryptanalyst or a hackers mindset to it and ask, "am I being deceieved?" the whole secular dialectic materialist edifice crumbles. I would argue that this question is also necessarily theistic, as it presupposes truth, and a belief in truth is proof of a belief in something divine by which truth can be measured or compared. That is how fragile this stuff is. This probably one of the most insightful things I have read on HN in a good while in terms of dealing with bs, which seems to be a staple of the era we live in. Sometimes all it takes is to question the motive of the message to peel the onion.
- Nemrod67 5y ago"the logic of an idea, where when you project it on something, the reflection doesn't illuminate the object so much as reinforce the underlying idea itself as a lens." The shape of the tool is as important as the shape of the material, and that is technology. Maybe there is real engineering/science/philosophy to be made there, but I guess it might become the ITER/LHC of philosophy if attempted.
- Barrin92 5y agoside note first, dialectic materialism is as modernist and 'truthy' as it gets. It stands in stark contrast to the the kind of thinking you appear to disagree with. To the main point, you're honestly just being sentimental. You're calling secular philosophers nihilistic, predatory, accuse them of trickery but you're not actually making a point to be honest. They may be all those things, that doesn't mean their arguments are bad. The article talks about a very foundational question. Can metaphysics make progress? Is it possible to come to consensus when in fact everyone, as you put it, has to accept someone else's ontological premises in arbitrary fashion? The answer to that question is probably not, and Wittengestein, Rorty, and the mentioned pragmatists have deflated this kind of discourse successfully. Pay close attention to your own rhetoric "it's just designed to homogenize and liquify culture to produce nihilistic ideologues who can't be trusted as fellow citizens to share a recourse to truth." This is not an argument, that's someone saying "don't listen to the devil kids". It's appealing to a notion of truth as a sort of communal protection racket because you don't like the consequences of Rorty et al being right. In fact even worse, you're doing the sort of power play you're accusing the philosophers in question of. "They are trying to homogenize our culture, don't listen to them!, if we don't believe in capital T Truth, everything will fall apart!"