6 ms·

I'm mid-40's, and at every medium-to-large company I have worked at, each promotion == more meetings, more bureaucracy, and less coding. Developing software is

I'm mid-40's, and at every medium-to-large company I have worked at, each promotion == more meetings, more bureaucracy, and less coding. Developing software is where the fun is, so for me the best route has been working at very small startups. Essentially no meetings and I design and build stuff all day every day and it's great.

city41 5y ago
I'm also mid forties and am in a similar boat and mindset. I also just want to build things. I have found whenever I talk with a company about possibly working there, they are considering me for hands off architecture/leadership roles which I could do but don't prefer. My solution so far has been freelancing, which has been working well. I can also see myself heading towards startups for similar reasons.
- datavirtue 5y ago
  This. I joined a senior-only contracting firm. I'm leaving a big client to go to a startup client. My choice. All I do is build things. FTEs eat all the shit and suffer the meetings. I do not.
indogooner 5y ago
Yes this is one way bu the salary gap is too huge and most startups when they start growing start hitting same problems. There may be handful with top class leaders who are better but from my limited experience they have been very rare or may be my network is too small.
- city41 5y ago
  If salary is important to you as you get more senior, then you need to play the mainstream game. Which mostly means going into management, architecture, consulting, etc. For those of us who don't really want to go down that route, I think sacrificing salary is a common concession you need to make.
  - WJW 5y ago
    For me, getting better at managing my personal finances made a huge difference. It is way more feasible to do things you like while sacrificing (some) salary if you have managed to build up a nest egg. It doesn't even have to be a lot of financial skills, even just the concept of "wealth is cumulative money in minus cumulative money out, so if you spend as much as you earn you'll never get richer" is very useful to internalize.
    - Syonyk 5y ago
      The best thing you can do is work out the concept of "enough" and "satisfaction with what you have." I've watched far, far too many well paid tech workers over the years just go down the road of "Oh, my paycheck is larger, so I can afford this [insert luxury item here]." Cars and houses are the big road to ruin. You get a taste for $1.5M houses, and $150k+ cars, well... you're going to be working the rest of your life. Figure out early on that a cheaper house (exact value depends on the area) and a $20k car get you around just as well for a lot less money, and you can go far. An awful lot of industries exist by trying to convince you that enough isn't enough. You deserve better. You have to buy the new one every year... because! Etc. And it's nonsense, but it's both very profitable to them and a great way to drain out your money without ever realizing where it goes. Get a grip on all that stuff early, and it helps a ton. I've made tech worker money for many years of my life, and have a 9 year old car, a 24 year old truck, and a range of esoteric and cantankerous motorcycles, the newest of which is around 8. They all do their jobs just fine - we just did a long road trip (2500 miles) in the car (Chevy Volt) with zero issues. I mean, sure, I could get loans for $100k class cars, but... why? What do they do that my current stuff won't? Well, phantom brake, apparently...
      - eclipxe 5y ago
        The quality of life difference Autopilot makes is worth $100k+ (though you don't need to spend that much anymore with the Y/3). Your dig at the end about phantom braking is kinda interesting, but I think you are underestimating how much of a different Autopilot truly makes.
- dbrueck 5y ago
  > but the salary gap is too huge Well... if the money is a means to an end, and if that end is highest quality of life, there's a good (but obviously personal and highly subjective) argument that optimizing around salary doesn't necessarily translate into max quality of life (though it sure helps to some degree). But yes, the gap itself can be quite large but it deserves some context too: IME the large companies do start to pay absurdly well as you get higher up the chain, but startups still pay >=5x the US median income, so it's not like you're choosing an impoverished life or anything. And if you can't get a startup to pay as much as you'd like but you do believe in the company, then use it to your advantage and negotiate for a much larger slice of the equity pie and/or start your own company. Just food for thought of course.
beebeepka 5y ago
Also an old fart. I am doing my best to remain a developer. Spending my work days in meetings and managing people sounds horrible to me.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
ajb 5y ago
Is your startup engineering led? My experience of a non-engineering-led startup is that there are more meetings than in a big company.
- dbrueck 5y ago
  > Is your startup engineering led? Yep. > My experience of a non-engineering-led startup is that there are more meetings than in a big company. Ditto. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it may have something to do with the fact that meetings are often the anxiety outlet for people who don't directly produce value. (Oof, that sounds harsh. And yet...)
  - ajb 5y ago
    In our case the problem was the opposite. There were enough people that coordination was needed, but the CEO didn't want any managers, so ICs need to track things and attend meetings while trying to get stuff done
stjohnswarts 5y ago
This is the path I've chosen. I don't want to control other people, just myself and my code. Sure I don't make as much as a manager but I'm a simple man with simple needs. I mostly consult and rarely have any issue with finding new work after the old contract is up.

city41 5y ago

I'm also mid forties and am in a similar boat and mindset. I also just want to build things. I have found whenever I talk with a company about possibly working there, they are considering me for hands off architecture/leadership roles which I could do but don't prefer. My solution so far has been freelancing, which has been working well. I can also see myself heading towards startups for similar reasons.

datavirtue 5y ago
This. I joined a senior-only contracting firm. I'm leaving a big client to go to a startup client. My choice. All I do is build things. FTEs eat all the shit and suffer the meetings. I do not.

indogooner 5y ago

Yes this is one way bu the salary gap is too huge and most startups when they start growing start hitting same problems. There may be handful with top class leaders who are better but from my limited experience they have been very rare or may be my network is too small.

city41 5y ago
If salary is important to you as you get more senior, then you need to play the mainstream game. Which mostly means going into management, architecture, consulting, etc. For those of us who don't really want to go down that route, I think sacrificing salary is a common concession you need to make.
- WJW 5y ago
  For me, getting better at managing my personal finances made a huge difference. It is way more feasible to do things you like while sacrificing (some) salary if you have managed to build up a nest egg. It doesn't even have to be a lot of financial skills, even just the concept of "wealth is cumulative money in minus cumulative money out, so if you spend as much as you earn you'll never get richer" is very useful to internalize.
  - Syonyk 5y ago
    The best thing you can do is work out the concept of "enough" and "satisfaction with what you have." I've watched far, far too many well paid tech workers over the years just go down the road of "Oh, my paycheck is larger, so I can afford this [insert luxury item here]." Cars and houses are the big road to ruin. You get a taste for $1.5M houses, and $150k+ cars, well... you're going to be working the rest of your life. Figure out early on that a cheaper house (exact value depends on the area) and a $20k car get you around just as well for a lot less money, and you can go far. An awful lot of industries exist by trying to convince you that enough isn't enough. You deserve better. You have to buy the new one every year... because! Etc. And it's nonsense, but it's both very profitable to them and a great way to drain out your money without ever realizing where it goes. Get a grip on all that stuff early, and it helps a ton. I've made tech worker money for many years of my life, and have a 9 year old car, a 24 year old truck, and a range of esoteric and cantankerous motorcycles, the newest of which is around 8. They all do their jobs just fine - we just did a long road trip (2500 miles) in the car (Chevy Volt) with zero issues. I mean, sure, I could get loans for $100k class cars, but... why? What do they do that my current stuff won't? Well, phantom brake, apparently...
    - eclipxe 5y ago
      The quality of life difference Autopilot makes is worth $100k+ (though you don't need to spend that much anymore with the Y/3). Your dig at the end about phantom braking is kinda interesting, but I think you are underestimating how much of a different Autopilot truly makes.
dbrueck 5y ago
> but the salary gap is too huge Well... if the money is a means to an end, and if that end is highest quality of life, there's a good (but obviously personal and highly subjective) argument that optimizing around salary doesn't necessarily translate into max quality of life (though it sure helps to some degree). But yes, the gap itself can be quite large but it deserves some context too: IME the large companies do start to pay absurdly well as you get higher up the chain, but startups still pay >=5x the US median income, so it's not like you're choosing an impoverished life or anything. And if you can't get a startup to pay as much as you'd like but you do believe in the company, then use it to your advantage and negotiate for a much larger slice of the equity pie and/or start your own company. Just food for thought of course.

beebeepka 5y ago

Also an old fart. I am doing my best to remain a developer. Spending my work days in meetings and managing people sounds horrible to me.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

ajb 5y ago

Is your startup engineering led? My experience of a non-engineering-led startup is that there are more meetings than in a big company.

dbrueck 5y ago
> Is your startup engineering led? Yep. > My experience of a non-engineering-led startup is that there are more meetings than in a big company. Ditto. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it may have something to do with the fact that meetings are often the anxiety outlet for people who don't directly produce value. (Oof, that sounds harsh. And yet...)
- ajb 5y ago
  In our case the problem was the opposite. There were enough people that coordination was needed, but the CEO didn't want any managers, so ICs need to track things and attend meetings while trying to get stuff done

stjohnswarts 5y ago

This is the path I've chosen. I don't want to control other people, just myself and my code. Sure I don't make as much as a manager but I'm a simple man with simple needs. I mostly consult and rarely have any issue with finding new work after the old contract is up.