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Any teaching that assumes that the student is a biggot that needs to be corrected, and that the student should just accept his truth on the basis of his/her aut

Any teaching that assumes that the student is a biggot that needs to be corrected, and that the student should just accept his truth on the basis of his/her authority as a teacher, is obviously a fairly bad way of teaching. The teacher should make the knowledge he wants to impart approachable and use an angle that the student can accept so as to convince him/her.

bryanrasmussen 5y ago
the quote does not make any assumption about bigotry of the student, but rather of the parents.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  Indeed. If the parents are concerned about the book being part of the curriculum because the author is black, Jewish, homosexual, or any ‘other’ (rather than on the contents of the book), it seems to be a fairly accurate assumption. “Look, we literally can’t force your child to do anything. If they prefer to sit non-disruptively and receive a zero in that part of the curriculum, that works for us.”
  - Jensson 5y ago
    Often it happens like this: Teacher: Your kid needs to read a book by a black author. Parent: Why do my kid need to read a book by a black author? I don't think that is a good way to pick books. Teacher: So you say you refuse to let your kid read any books by black people? Stop being such a bigoted racist! Society isn't tolerant enough to tolerate people like you!
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      Do you think that teacher’s first line is actually “often” the way such a controversy starts?
      - Jensson 5y ago
        Yes. How else would it start? The teacher decides that the kids needs to read a book for racist reasons, eg because the skincolor of the books author is what the teacher wants it to be. Teachers associations often writes such goals in their agenda, this isn't a conspiracy theory, they say that this is why they do it openly themselves. Then when people protest that the protesters gets called racists. Maybe there are some real racists out there, but I believe that this version is overwhelmingly more common. I have seen it many times, so I have no reason to believe that the "racism" the author refers to anything more than this sort of "racism". Edit: Can you give a single case where teachers first didn't pick a book because the author was black but instead that it made the most sense to use that book, and parents still complained in the past 5 years?
        ModernMech 5y ago
        Can you provide a single case to support your position? You can’t ask someone to prove a negative. But you have told us this this is happening “often”. In fact it’s so prevalent you can’t even imagine an alternative conversation. You presented a specific conversation. Did you hear that conversation personally? If not, who told you this conversation happened or where did you read about it happening? I’m not doubting you, I just want to get more hard facts into this thread. You said that teacher associations have “often” written this into their “agendas” so it’s not a conspiracy theory. What are these associations and do you have a copy of these agendas into which they have written this? Since it happens often and it’s written down, you should show us and we can have a more substantive discussion about what they actually wrote versus your interpretation of what they wrote.
        Jensson 5y ago
        > Can you provide a single case to support your position? There is plenty, this article gives a good view, apparently people have been pushing for things I claimed for 50 years according to this article. I have no reason to believe all these "racists" described here aren't just people who push back against these movements. I'm not saying that such movements aren't warranted, however I would not say that people who are against them are racist. There is a huge leap between "I don't want to read a book just because it was written by a black person" and "I refuse to read any book written by a black person no matter what the book is about". > It’s been more than 50 years since literacy experts first stressed the need for more diverse books in the classroom, and yet reading lists look surprisingly the same as they did in 1970. https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/ed/19/08/hooked-classics https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/ed/19/08/hooked-classics
    - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
      I'm pretty sure the first line by the teacher would be something like - your kid needs to read a book by Maya Angelou or they would name some other specific black author. Or maybe they might say something like in order to diversify our reading we will be bringing books by black authors into the curriculum, authors like Maya Angelou. But I doubt they would say your kid needs to read a book by a black author. Because then I guess the kid could just choose the read The Three Musketeers, which actually I would think that a kid choosing to read that had their head on right but probably that is not what the teacher is hoping for.
      - Jensson 5y ago
        > I'm pretty sure the first line by the teacher would be something like - your kid needs to read a book by Maya Angelou or they would name some other specific black author. No, they absolutely are talking about people like this, they say that kids needs to read books by black authors, then the teachers reads this and adds books because the authors are black: > The push to modernize reading lists is challenging traditional definitions of literature. Surprise: Not everyone is happy about it. https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/ed/19/08/hooked-classics https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/ed/19/08/hooked-classics
        bryanrasmussen 5y ago
        >then the teachers reads this and adds books because the authors are black maybe the teacher finds appropriate authors who also happen to be black.
        Jensson 5y ago
        Ok, the example wasn't clear enough. Lets take the more real world example: Teacher Organization: Kids should be forced to read books by black authors. Parent Organisation: I don't think you should do that, it isn't a good way to pick books. Teacher Organisation: We are doing this to fix a historical problem, your pushback is just because you don't want your kids to read books by black authors, stop being such racist bigots! I really hate racist parents! Society shouldn't tolerate people like you!
    - mindslight 5y ago
      You're bashing a strawman. I don't doubt your sincerity (as I was of a similar perspective when subject to this), but it is still ultimately a strawman. Because what "Black author" actually means is picking books written from the perspective of the Black community. Which to a parent or student not familiar with that culture, of course feels foreign and unnecessary. It also doesn't help that analysis of such books inevitably focuses on race relations (tedious social science), because that's where it crops up. But if education should aim to encompass the entirety of American culture, of which the Black community was and is still a significant part of, then this type of thing is probably the best we can do despite it seeming trite and forced. Quick: name a historical Black scientist who didn't work with peanuts.
      - aspenmayer 5y ago
        > Quick: name a historical Black scientist who didn't work with peanuts. I like to think of myself as an educated person, and I’m struggling with this. I’d struggle also to name an Indian or Chinese or Russian historical scientist. This reflects a White Western English bias in educational system imo. Also my own responsibility to do something about as well.
brippalcharrid 5y ago
Many teachers, professors and daycare workers have been trained to believe that this is an absolute, fundamental ground truth about their students and the air that they breathe; this is an increasingly prevalent worldview in the sphere of education, and we're likely to see further developments as it strengthens its hold.
- ModernMech 5y ago
  I’m curious to know the basis of your assertions, to try to get a better idea of this situation from your point of view. First, the idea that many have been trained to believe this. What is this training specifically they are receiving? How many teachers/professors/daycare workers are receiving this training and where? By whom? Is the basis of this belief something you read or personal knowledge of teachers and professors in your life? Secondly the idea that this worldview is increasingly prevalent: do you have any data on this, that teachers and daycare workers increasingly believe their students are bigots? When did this belief start increasing? How fast is it increasing? If we know it’s increasing we must have a measure on how much and how quickly. Is it a lot rapidly, or not so much over a long time? I’m seeing a lot of strong conclusive statements in this thread without a lot of accompanying evidence. I’m sure your statements are rooted in well-researched evidence or at least personal experience with the educational community, so I’m just curious to see exactly what so I can incorporate them into my own point of view.
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    Interestingly this is the top article on The Atlantic at the moment: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/11/universities-forced-consensus-kyle-rittenhouse/620809/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/11/universiti... It’s an interesting trend where suddenly the universities are not only trying to find the truth, but apparently they have a monopoly on it.
    - ModernMech 5y ago
      Is that really a new trend though? Academia has always fancied itself to be an arbiter of truth. Religion as well, which is why a tension exists between the two, and people like to cast Academia as a religious order (they are not wrong to do so).
dhoe 5y ago
That's not what teaching is. What you're thinking of is called selling.
enaaem 5y ago
Sounds like a religion to me. We are born in sin and need to be saved.
atoav 5y ago
You should assume that your students don't know many perspectives on different lifes, nations, cultures, professions, etc. not because they are intolerant, but because how should they know something that they haven't been in contact with their whole lives? So you teach them about the world not because you think they are stupid, but because it is your task to teach them about the world they live in, with the hope that they will make good citizens that in turn are capable of decent choices that create a liveable society for all. You teach them in order to not have them turn into ignorant people. Political groups that tell you that teaching facts about society and history have the goal of bringing their propaganda into the schools.

bryanrasmussen 5y ago

the quote does not make any assumption about bigotry of the student, but rather of the parents.

sokoloff 5y ago
Indeed. If the parents are concerned about the book being part of the curriculum because the author is black, Jewish, homosexual, or any ‘other’ (rather than on the contents of the book), it seems to be a fairly accurate assumption. “Look, we literally can’t force your child to do anything. If they prefer to sit non-disruptively and receive a zero in that part of the curriculum, that works for us.”
- Jensson 5y ago
  Often it happens like this: Teacher: Your kid needs to read a book by a black author. Parent: Why do my kid need to read a book by a black author? I don't think that is a good way to pick books. Teacher: So you say you refuse to let your kid read any books by black people? Stop being such a bigoted racist! Society isn't tolerant enough to tolerate people like you!
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    Do you think that teacher’s first line is actually “often” the way such a controversy starts?
    - Jensson 5y ago
      Yes. How else would it start? The teacher decides that the kids needs to read a book for racist reasons, eg because the skincolor of the books author is what the teacher wants it to be. Teachers associations often writes such goals in their agenda, this isn't a conspiracy theory, they say that this is why they do it openly themselves. Then when people protest that the protesters gets called racists. Maybe there are some real racists out there, but I believe that this version is overwhelmingly more common. I have seen it many times, so I have no reason to believe that the "racism" the author refers to anything more than this sort of "racism". Edit: Can you give a single case where teachers first didn't pick a book because the author was black but instead that it made the most sense to use that book, and parents still complained in the past 5 years?
      - ModernMech 5y ago
        Can you provide a single case to support your position? You can’t ask someone to prove a negative. But you have told us this this is happening “often”. In fact it’s so prevalent you can’t even imagine an alternative conversation. You presented a specific conversation. Did you hear that conversation personally? If not, who told you this conversation happened or where did you read about it happening? I’m not doubting you, I just want to get more hard facts into this thread. You said that teacher associations have “often” written this into their “agendas” so it’s not a conspiracy theory. What are these associations and do you have a copy of these agendas into which they have written this? Since it happens often and it’s written down, you should show us and we can have a more substantive discussion about what they actually wrote versus your interpretation of what they wrote.
        Jensson 5y ago
        > Can you provide a single case to support your position? There is plenty, this article gives a good view, apparently people have been pushing for things I claimed for 50 years according to this article. I have no reason to believe all these "racists" described here aren't just people who push back against these movements. I'm not saying that such movements aren't warranted, however I would not say that people who are against them are racist. There is a huge leap between "I don't want to read a book just because it was written by a black person" and "I refuse to read any book written by a black person no matter what the book is about". > It’s been more than 50 years since literacy experts first stressed the need for more diverse books in the classroom, and yet reading lists look surprisingly the same as they did in 1970. https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/ed/19/08/hooked-classics https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/ed/19/08/hooked-classics
  - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure the first line by the teacher would be something like - your kid needs to read a book by Maya Angelou or they would name some other specific black author. Or maybe they might say something like in order to diversify our reading we will be bringing books by black authors into the curriculum, authors like Maya Angelou. But I doubt they would say your kid needs to read a book by a black author. Because then I guess the kid could just choose the read The Three Musketeers, which actually I would think that a kid choosing to read that had their head on right but probably that is not what the teacher is hoping for.
    - Jensson 5y ago
      > I'm pretty sure the first line by the teacher would be something like - your kid needs to read a book by Maya Angelou or they would name some other specific black author. No, they absolutely are talking about people like this, they say that kids needs to read books by black authors, then the teachers reads this and adds books because the authors are black: > The push to modernize reading lists is challenging traditional definitions of literature. Surprise: Not everyone is happy about it. https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/ed/19/08/hooked-classics https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/ed/19/08/hooked-classics
      - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
        >then the teachers reads this and adds books because the authors are black maybe the teacher finds appropriate authors who also happen to be black.
        Jensson 5y ago
        Ok, the example wasn't clear enough. Lets take the more real world example: Teacher Organization: Kids should be forced to read books by black authors. Parent Organisation: I don't think you should do that, it isn't a good way to pick books. Teacher Organisation: We are doing this to fix a historical problem, your pushback is just because you don't want your kids to read books by black authors, stop being such racist bigots! I really hate racist parents! Society shouldn't tolerate people like you!
  - mindslight 5y ago
    You're bashing a strawman. I don't doubt your sincerity (as I was of a similar perspective when subject to this), but it is still ultimately a strawman. Because what "Black author" actually means is picking books written from the perspective of the Black community. Which to a parent or student not familiar with that culture, of course feels foreign and unnecessary. It also doesn't help that analysis of such books inevitably focuses on race relations (tedious social science), because that's where it crops up. But if education should aim to encompass the entirety of American culture, of which the Black community was and is still a significant part of, then this type of thing is probably the best we can do despite it seeming trite and forced. Quick: name a historical Black scientist who didn't work with peanuts.
    - aspenmayer 5y ago
      > Quick: name a historical Black scientist who didn't work with peanuts. I like to think of myself as an educated person, and I’m struggling with this. I’d struggle also to name an Indian or Chinese or Russian historical scientist. This reflects a White Western English bias in educational system imo. Also my own responsibility to do something about as well.

brippalcharrid 5y ago

Many teachers, professors and daycare workers have been trained to believe that this is an absolute, fundamental ground truth about their students and the air that they breathe; this is an increasingly prevalent worldview in the sphere of education, and we're likely to see further developments as it strengthens its hold.

ModernMech 5y ago
I’m curious to know the basis of your assertions, to try to get a better idea of this situation from your point of view. First, the idea that many have been trained to believe this. What is this training specifically they are receiving? How many teachers/professors/daycare workers are receiving this training and where? By whom? Is the basis of this belief something you read or personal knowledge of teachers and professors in your life? Secondly the idea that this worldview is increasingly prevalent: do you have any data on this, that teachers and daycare workers increasingly believe their students are bigots? When did this belief start increasing? How fast is it increasing? If we know it’s increasing we must have a measure on how much and how quickly. Is it a lot rapidly, or not so much over a long time? I’m seeing a lot of strong conclusive statements in this thread without a lot of accompanying evidence. I’m sure your statements are rooted in well-researched evidence or at least personal experience with the educational community, so I’m just curious to see exactly what so I can incorporate them into my own point of view.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  Interestingly this is the top article on The Atlantic at the moment: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/11/universities-forced-consensus-kyle-rittenhouse/620809/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/11/universiti... It’s an interesting trend where suddenly the universities are not only trying to find the truth, but apparently they have a monopoly on it.
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    Is that really a new trend though? Academia has always fancied itself to be an arbiter of truth. Religion as well, which is why a tension exists between the two, and people like to cast Academia as a religious order (they are not wrong to do so).

dhoe 5y ago

That's not what teaching is. What you're thinking of is called selling.

enaaem 5y ago

Sounds like a religion to me. We are born in sin and need to be saved.

atoav 5y ago

You should assume that your students don't know many perspectives on different lifes, nations, cultures, professions, etc. not because they are intolerant, but because how should they know something that they haven't been in contact with their whole lives? So you teach them about the world not because you think they are stupid, but because it is your task to teach them about the world they live in, with the hope that they will make good citizens that in turn are capable of decent choices that create a liveable society for all. You teach them in order to not have them turn into ignorant people. Political groups that tell you that teaching facts about society and history have the goal of bringing their propaganda into the schools.