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I'd have to agree. Everything in the article about Europe is technically correct, but it is such a small slice of the SEPA payments. The article is so mislead

I'd have to agree. Everything in the article about Europe is technically correct, but it is such a small slice of the SEPA payments. The article is so misleading it might as well be wrong. I make payments to the benelux, france, germany, spain and poland, and they go all over the push mechanism. Direct debit is for utilities, and that's about it. For fraud, my bank provides a gui with active agreements. While I can't cancel an agreement there, I can set a maximum frequency and amount. I put them at once per year max 0.0001 Euro until they get removed. Non recurring payments over direct debit (Or even worse Clarna) is an instant no. I take another payment method. If grabbing money from my bank without my control is the only option, that's a red flag. I consider the company sleazy enough to go find a competitor, even if it raises the cost.

Semaphor 5y ago
> Direct debit is for utilities, and that's about it. Here in Germany, bigger online stores offered it as well. I used to use it for Amazon several years ago.
kwhitefoot 5y ago
My bank in Norway (SBanken, formerly Skandia Bank) allows me to specify a maximum amount that any creditor can ask for per month when using the equivalent of direct debits (and I also get notified in advance of every payment so that I can cancel either the individual payment or the whole agreement if I wish. This is all done via the web or app and takes effect immediately, no need to ask anyone at the bank to do anything. Here it is called AvtaleGiro.
- kentrf 5y ago
  «AvtaleGiro» is such a time saver. Utilities, electricity, internet, road tax, insurance and almost all kinds of recurring payments happens automatically and electronically.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
l33tman 5y ago
Klarna has been aggressive in trying to push consumers into acknowledging Klarna to pull from their accounts lately. People are used to Klarna here (Sweden), with their "pay on invoice in 14 days for no additional fee" since long, but now they're trying to leverage that into getting customers setup with their bank accounts. Of course they are not going to use this to explicitly steal from customers but still you wonder what can go wrong giving other entities this access..
- Findecanor 5y ago
  I would not trust Klarna for anything. Klarna's use of dark patterns on the web for leading people into debt over choosing other payment methods has been outlawed in Sweden, but I've read that they have continued doing it in other countries.
  - isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
    Quite frankly the practice of requiring bank credentials from consumers should be entirely banned via some laws. It pries on gullible people.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
Hamuko 5y ago
>Direct debit is for utilities, and that's about it. I think the only party that can draw money directly from my bank account is my bank itself for my mortgage. For everything else, I have e-invoices, where the invoice comes directly to my bank account, so I receive a paper invoice maybe once a year from somewhere. And for e-invoices I can just set auto-accept limits, so any phone bill that is less than 10€ will get automatically accepted and for any phone bills greater than 10€, I need to manually accept it on my bank's website/app. Actually, I have SEPA Direct Debit disabled on my bank account settings now that I checked it, so I guess I've never used it. I guess my bank just has direct access anyways for mortgage payments.
odiroot 5y ago
> I make payments to the benelux, france, germany, spain and poland, and they go all over the push mechanism. Direct debit is for utilities, and that's about it. SEPA direct debit is a really really popular thing in Germany. Most utilities prefer (quite understandably) to pull from you instead of waiting for your transfer. Even landlords usually give you an agreement form to pull your rent out of your account. I got used to that and recently tried to use a Polish bank account to pay on Amazon and surprisingly it didn't work. Amazon has sent me an automated email with a demand for a (push) transfer, sadly with added fee for the trouble. Most people in Poland actually do transfers manually, direct debit is not really a thing. On the other hand there's this BLIK thing for instant transfers, even across banks.
- realityking 5y ago
  > I got used to that and recently tried to use a Polish bank account to pay on Amazon and surprisingly it didn't work. Amazon has sent me an automated email with a demand for a (push) transfer, sadly with added fee for the trouble. That might be a function of Poland not being in the euro zone. AFAIK SEPA Direct Debit is only for transfers in Euro. Even if you tried to use a Euro bank account in Poland, either your bank or Amazon might not have bothered to implement it.
  - odiroot 5y ago
    Yep, I did use an EUR account. You may be right about the lack of proper implementation.
    - antaviana 5y ago
      Did you have Marketplace charges? These are USD only. When they launched the SEPA direct debit option a couple years ago I tried it and the debit bounced back. Eventually I did not have the need for marketplace instances anymore, then I tried it again and it worked.
- sc11 5y ago
  > SEPA direct debit is a really really popular thing in Germany. Most utilities prefer (quite understandably) to pull from you instead of waiting for your transfer. Even landlords usually give you an agreement form to pull your rent out of your account. Landlords benefit from it because it makes it harder for your to lower your rent in case there are issues with the place that warrant it. If they can withdraw the rent directly, you'd have to undo that payment, pay the lowered amount manually etc. which makes it more hassle for you and also increases the risk of screwing up.
fxtentacle 5y ago
Fully agree. In Germany we have a widely used push mechanism (giropay) where you approve the online payment using an app or a dedicated hardware device. It's instant, free for buyer and seller, push, and requires explicit consent for each transfer from the buyer. It's supported by all major electronics stores. The only exception is Amazon who will do a SEPA pull instead. But there the bank grants you 6 weeks to cancel the deduction if you want to.
- ThrowAwayIRUK 5y ago
  Not correct: Giropay does in fact include fees, though these are usually covered by the seller. (check for example: https://www.unternehmerportal.info/giropay/ https://www.unternehmerportal.info/giropay/) DISCLAIMER: Lead Payment Engineer at an European Challenger Bank, i'm implementing that stuff in the backend, i'm mainly talking to our central bank.
  - fxtentacle 5y ago
    I'm honestly surprised. I've been using it as the seller with a Deutsche Bank business account for a few years now and I never paid any per-transaction fees.
xioxox 5y ago
Interestingly, some of the in-person debit card payments I make from my German bank appear to work internally as direct debits. They appear as "SEPA-ELV-LASTSCHRIFT" on statement. Other card payments are just called "KARTENZAHLUNG". Interestingly, the Lastschrift (direct debit) payments seem reversible on my bank interface, so I could get the money back (presumably invoking letters from the company and debt collectors).
- amaccuish 5y ago
  When using the girocard there's two ways the retailer can take the amount. Either instantly, or using Lastschrift. The latter is cheaper, but the retailer doesn't have the guarantee that your account actually has sufficient balance to pay. If I remember correctly, the latter method requires you to sign the receipt.
  - ThrowAwayIRUK 5y ago
    Actually, in the first case, its not instantly take, instead it is marked as a "abgesicherte laschrift", which is equivalent to enter card+PIN, meaning you can't revoke those. Though, sure you can, but it will end up with nice discussions with your bank :)
  - KarlKemp 5y ago
    Yeah, that's where the fun algorithms trying to predict reliability from the set of products you're buying comes in... It's getting rarer, though. The cost difference is eroding and signing is too slow for supermarket checkout lanes. The tables have also turned and some retailers now earn money from the banks for supplying their customers with cash (i. e. you pay by card and get an extra x00 in cash).
- ThrowAwayIRUK 5y ago
  Depends on which card you have used and which scheme was used to process; In general, "double scheme cards" (MC + Maestro on one card) should offer you the option to choose, while at the POS, which scheme should be used; the thing is, the merchant is not required to offer you this question, and there is a "default scheme" on such cards. This means, in cases the merchant does not ask you, the default scheme is chosen, which is usually the one that brings in more fees for the bank/PSP. And: Depending on the contract between you and your bank, it maybe that you couldn't revoke the "lastschrift", yes.
ThrowAwayIRUK 5y ago
Not correct: SEPA SDD Core + SDD B2B are working crossborder; though you're right that these are not deployed regularly/seldom. DISCLAIMER: Lead Payment Engineer at an European Challenger Bank, i'm implementing that stuff in the backend, i'm mainly talking to our central bank.

Semaphor 5y ago

> Direct debit is for utilities, and that's about it. Here in Germany, bigger online stores offered it as well. I used to use it for Amazon several years ago.

kwhitefoot 5y ago

My bank in Norway (SBanken, formerly Skandia Bank) allows me to specify a maximum amount that any creditor can ask for per month when using the equivalent of direct debits (and I also get notified in advance of every payment so that I can cancel either the individual payment or the whole agreement if I wish. This is all done via the web or app and takes effect immediately, no need to ask anyone at the bank to do anything. Here it is called AvtaleGiro.

kentrf 5y ago
«AvtaleGiro» is such a time saver. Utilities, electricity, internet, road tax, insurance and almost all kinds of recurring payments happens automatically and electronically.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

l33tman 5y ago

Klarna has been aggressive in trying to push consumers into acknowledging Klarna to pull from their accounts lately. People are used to Klarna here (Sweden), with their "pay on invoice in 14 days for no additional fee" since long, but now they're trying to leverage that into getting customers setup with their bank accounts. Of course they are not going to use this to explicitly steal from customers but still you wonder what can go wrong giving other entities this access..

Findecanor 5y ago
I would not trust Klarna for anything. Klarna's use of dark patterns on the web for leading people into debt over choosing other payment methods has been outlawed in Sweden, but I've read that they have continued doing it in other countries.
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
  Quite frankly the practice of requiring bank credentials from consumers should be entirely banned via some laws. It pries on gullible people.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

Hamuko 5y ago

>Direct debit is for utilities, and that's about it. I think the only party that can draw money directly from my bank account is my bank itself for my mortgage. For everything else, I have e-invoices, where the invoice comes directly to my bank account, so I receive a paper invoice maybe once a year from somewhere. And for e-invoices I can just set auto-accept limits, so any phone bill that is less than 10€ will get automatically accepted and for any phone bills greater than 10€, I need to manually accept it on my bank's website/app. Actually, I have SEPA Direct Debit disabled on my bank account settings now that I checked it, so I guess I've never used it. I guess my bank just has direct access anyways for mortgage payments.

odiroot 5y ago

> I make payments to the benelux, france, germany, spain and poland, and they go all over the push mechanism. Direct debit is for utilities, and that's about it. SEPA direct debit is a really really popular thing in Germany. Most utilities prefer (quite understandably) to pull from you instead of waiting for your transfer. Even landlords usually give you an agreement form to pull your rent out of your account. I got used to that and recently tried to use a Polish bank account to pay on Amazon and surprisingly it didn't work. Amazon has sent me an automated email with a demand for a (push) transfer, sadly with added fee for the trouble. Most people in Poland actually do transfers manually, direct debit is not really a thing. On the other hand there's this BLIK thing for instant transfers, even across banks.

realityking 5y ago
> I got used to that and recently tried to use a Polish bank account to pay on Amazon and surprisingly it didn't work. Amazon has sent me an automated email with a demand for a (push) transfer, sadly with added fee for the trouble. That might be a function of Poland not being in the euro zone. AFAIK SEPA Direct Debit is only for transfers in Euro. Even if you tried to use a Euro bank account in Poland, either your bank or Amazon might not have bothered to implement it.
- odiroot 5y ago
  Yep, I did use an EUR account. You may be right about the lack of proper implementation.
  - antaviana 5y ago
    Did you have Marketplace charges? These are USD only. When they launched the SEPA direct debit option a couple years ago I tried it and the debit bounced back. Eventually I did not have the need for marketplace instances anymore, then I tried it again and it worked.
sc11 5y ago
> SEPA direct debit is a really really popular thing in Germany. Most utilities prefer (quite understandably) to pull from you instead of waiting for your transfer. Even landlords usually give you an agreement form to pull your rent out of your account. Landlords benefit from it because it makes it harder for your to lower your rent in case there are issues with the place that warrant it. If they can withdraw the rent directly, you'd have to undo that payment, pay the lowered amount manually etc. which makes it more hassle for you and also increases the risk of screwing up.

fxtentacle 5y ago

Fully agree. In Germany we have a widely used push mechanism (giropay) where you approve the online payment using an app or a dedicated hardware device. It's instant, free for buyer and seller, push, and requires explicit consent for each transfer from the buyer. It's supported by all major electronics stores. The only exception is Amazon who will do a SEPA pull instead. But there the bank grants you 6 weeks to cancel the deduction if you want to.

ThrowAwayIRUK 5y ago
Not correct: Giropay does in fact include fees, though these are usually covered by the seller. (check for example: https://www.unternehmerportal.info/giropay/ https://www.unternehmerportal.info/giropay/) DISCLAIMER: Lead Payment Engineer at an European Challenger Bank, i'm implementing that stuff in the backend, i'm mainly talking to our central bank.
- fxtentacle 5y ago
  I'm honestly surprised. I've been using it as the seller with a Deutsche Bank business account for a few years now and I never paid any per-transaction fees.

xioxox 5y ago

Interestingly, some of the in-person debit card payments I make from my German bank appear to work internally as direct debits. They appear as "SEPA-ELV-LASTSCHRIFT" on statement. Other card payments are just called "KARTENZAHLUNG". Interestingly, the Lastschrift (direct debit) payments seem reversible on my bank interface, so I could get the money back (presumably invoking letters from the company and debt collectors).

amaccuish 5y ago
When using the girocard there's two ways the retailer can take the amount. Either instantly, or using Lastschrift. The latter is cheaper, but the retailer doesn't have the guarantee that your account actually has sufficient balance to pay. If I remember correctly, the latter method requires you to sign the receipt.
- ThrowAwayIRUK 5y ago
  Actually, in the first case, its not instantly take, instead it is marked as a "abgesicherte laschrift", which is equivalent to enter card+PIN, meaning you can't revoke those. Though, sure you can, but it will end up with nice discussions with your bank :)
- KarlKemp 5y ago
  Yeah, that's where the fun algorithms trying to predict reliability from the set of products you're buying comes in... It's getting rarer, though. The cost difference is eroding and signing is too slow for supermarket checkout lanes. The tables have also turned and some retailers now earn money from the banks for supplying their customers with cash (i. e. you pay by card and get an extra x00 in cash).
ThrowAwayIRUK 5y ago
Depends on which card you have used and which scheme was used to process; In general, "double scheme cards" (MC + Maestro on one card) should offer you the option to choose, while at the POS, which scheme should be used; the thing is, the merchant is not required to offer you this question, and there is a "default scheme" on such cards. This means, in cases the merchant does not ask you, the default scheme is chosen, which is usually the one that brings in more fees for the bank/PSP. And: Depending on the contract between you and your bank, it maybe that you couldn't revoke the "lastschrift", yes.

ThrowAwayIRUK 5y ago

Not correct: SEPA SDD Core + SDD B2B are working crossborder; though you're right that these are not deployed regularly/seldom. DISCLAIMER: Lead Payment Engineer at an European Challenger Bank, i'm implementing that stuff in the backend, i'm mainly talking to our central bank.