5 ms·

Please explain your point further, because it seems to me you are equating "black" names with cheesy email addresses.

by BCM43 15y ago

cperciva 15y ago
Names say something about the people who pick them. Yes, race; but also education, socioeconomic level, and community. The black population of the US is heavily weighted towards poor education and poverty, so when people think of "typical black names" they're often thinking of typical poor uneducated black names.
- ldd- 15y ago
  Key difference . . . names are chosen by a person's parents, while email addresses are chosen by a person for themselves. Focusing on the name, which the person can't control, instead of on the person's accomplishments (resume), which the person can absolutely control, would seem to be an indicator of bias. I don't think your point holds up.
  - cperciva 15y ago
    You don't think that your parents' income or education level has an effect on your later success? And sure, it would be better to ignore names and focus on a resume -- but people rely on subconscious cues all the time. If your only goal is to find good candidates as quickly as possible, a subconscious cue which is usually correct works to your advantage -- whether it's "people with degrees from Harvard are stuck-up snobs", "people who write their resumes in LaTex are good coders", or "people with weird names like 'jewyl' are useless".
    - jbri 15y ago
      Making important decisions based on stereotypes rather than facts tends to be frowned upon these days. And (at least in the US) it opens yourself up to huge discrimination suits if you base your discrimination on protected classes like gender or race.
      - cperciva 15y ago
        I'm not saying that people should do this. Only that they do, and (barring legal consequences) it's advantageous to do so.
    - kenjackson 15y ago
      This just seems odd given that you have a page of information which is probably a lot more informative. But that's kind of the definition of racism -- even in the face of evidence that would contradict your stereotype you'll cling to your stereotype.
      - cperciva 15y ago
        Sure, you have a page of information which is more informative. And you have Google, which is probably even more informative. And you could start phoning college professors and get even more information. There's a point where the cost of gathering information exceeds its value. Unfortunately, that point sometimes comes halfway through reading a resume.
      - n09n 15y ago
        When you're comparing the candidate against someone else with the exact same resume that differs only by name, the rest of that information is not useful, because it doesn't help you distinguish between the choices.
        kenjackson 15y ago
        But isn't that the point of the statement. It would be like saying that if you saw the candidate in person and they did the job equally well, but one had dark skin and the other light skin, so we used their skin color to distinguish -- but then trying to argue that skin color isn't really a proxy for race, since some black people could be lighter than a white person. To me it just sounds like racism covered up.
        hackinthebochs 15y ago
        Thanks for this. I swear the mental gymnastics people go through to convince themselves their biases aren't about race are amazing (note I'm not calling anyone racist here). First thing we all need to do is be willing to flat out admit our own faults without any rationalizations. That's the only way we'll ever be able to overcome it.
  - ldd- 15y ago
    In response to cperciva's comment . . . Statistically? Sure . . . on an individual basis? Should be irrelevant . . . that's why we base employment decisions upon the resume of the individual and not based upon the resume of the parents.
  - jcampbell1 15y ago
    This is not completely true. Of the 10 or so people I have hired, 3 had resume names different from their legal names. One had a Pakistani name, another was chinese, and one had a ghetto name. It is well known that you can put whatever name on your resume you want. It is not until after you are hired that you have to submit documentation.
- bootload 15y ago
  "... Names say something about the people who pick them. ..." There is a freakonomics discussion about the power of name choice in "Super Freakonomics", CH6, "Perfect Parenting, Part II; or: Would a Roshanda by Any Other Name Smell as Sweet?" which hints at this ~ http://freakonomicsbook.com/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/chapter-6/ http://freakonomicsbook.com/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/ch... and http://www.slate.com/id/2116449/ http://www.slate.com/id/2116449/ though the message I got was the signaling the name gave to others & the recipient of the name mattered more.
- hackinthebochs 15y ago
  I think you're trying too hard to explain how a bias against black names isn't a bias against the racial group. The article said they used archetypal black names such as "Latoya" or "Tyrone". Taking this at face value, there is no indication of lower socioeconomic level unless you're taking being black itself as the indication. We're not talking about made up ghetto names that we all love to disparage these days. Being biased against standard <racial group> names is in fact a bias against <racial group>.
  - rayiner 15y ago
    You don't see a lot of black guys named "Tyrone" walking around Harvard. Latoya and Tyrone are common black names, and they're also strongly associated with lower socioeconomic level because lots of blacks are in a lower socioeconomic level. The sorts of professional, educated black families that send their kids to good schools and from there to good jobs don't name them these lower-class names.
    - kenjackson 15y ago
      Tyrone is just not a common name at all anymore. You're not likely to meet someone named Tyrone at a Crip hangout.
    - hackinthebochs 15y ago
      So you're saying that any black name is automatically associated with lower class. I would contend that this proof that bias against names is bias against the race. Edit: just to explain a bit more: my point is that Tyrone and Latoya are not indicative of lower class, any more than simply being black is. Thus a bias against those names is a bias against black in general.
  - chc 15y ago
    If I recall correctly, names that are considered distinctively black but not actually African do tend to be associated with lower-class blacks. It's unfortunate but AFAIK that's the way the world is, largely because blacks historically have felt pressure to seem more "white" as they've moved up in society. So it's hard to disambiguate the two factors. I'd bet you'd see a similar bias against lower-class white names like Bubba or Leroy or most of the names here: http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/forum/topic88623.html http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/forum/topic88623.ht... If it is purely economic, you probably also wouldn't see as much bias against black-sounding names that don't have negative connotations such as Michael Jackson (it might get a smirk, but if it is indeed about economic bias, the name of a prestigious black man should be a good demonstration).
- ajays 15y ago
  "Names say something about the people who pick them. Yes, race; but also education, socioeconomic level, and community...." You are forgetting one not-so-minor fact that the resumes were _identical_ to the white ones'. Are you saying that the recipients just looked at the names and didn't even bother to read the resumes??
  - cperciva 15y ago
    I'm saying that having seen the names people didn't read the resumes as closely, yes.
    - Someone 15y ago
      It could also mean that they read them differently. Say they took two years more than normal for high school. On the one hand, that can trigger thoughts about laziness or lack of intelligence. On the other, it can trigger thoughts about perseverence (many others would have given up), or about how the recruiter 'lost' two years in high school, too, because his father died in a house fire. Fighting one's prejudices is really hard.
gcb 15y ago
i think i got the parent comment's point. it's not about race in this case, but assuming --even if with the back of the mind, how the candidate would fit into the cultural aspect of the organization. Imagine a guy in a organization that has a heavy crunch time every friday until late if needed. in the several interviews when he mention that, he noticed that the group of people that turn down the position because of this is of some cultural group. The next time he is hiring, even if only on the back of his mind, he will go past the candidates that have names indicating that said cultural group, because his brain will fast forward to all the time wasted interviewing and then being turned down. it's not like the guy has anything against that group. In the article, the point made is far worse than this example. From a moral point of view. as it hints to a macro-social preconception on race.

Please explain your point further, because it seems to me you are equating "black" names with cheesy email addresses.

by BCM43 15y ago

Please explain your point further, because it seems to me you are equating "black" names with cheesy email addresses.

Names say something about the people who pick them. Yes, race; but also education, socioeconomic level, and community. The black population of the US is heavily weighted towards poor education and poverty, so when people think of "typical black names" they're often thinking of typical poor uneducated black names.

ldd- 15y ago
Key difference . . . names are chosen by a person's parents, while email addresses are chosen by a person for themselves. Focusing on the name, which the person can't control, instead of on the person's accomplishments (resume), which the person can absolutely control, would seem to be an indicator of bias. I don't think your point holds up.
- cperciva 15y ago
  You don't think that your parents' income or education level has an effect on your later success? And sure, it would be better to ignore names and focus on a resume -- but people rely on subconscious cues all the time. If your only goal is to find good candidates as quickly as possible, a subconscious cue which is usually correct works to your advantage -- whether it's "people with degrees from Harvard are stuck-up snobs", "people who write their resumes in LaTex are good coders", or "people with weird names like 'jewyl' are useless".
  - jbri 15y ago
    Making important decisions based on stereotypes rather than facts tends to be frowned upon these days. And (at least in the US) it opens yourself up to huge discrimination suits if you base your discrimination on protected classes like gender or race.
    - cperciva 15y ago
      I'm not saying that people should do this. Only that they do, and (barring legal consequences) it's advantageous to do so.
  - kenjackson 15y ago
    This just seems odd given that you have a page of information which is probably a lot more informative. But that's kind of the definition of racism -- even in the face of evidence that would contradict your stereotype you'll cling to your stereotype.
    - cperciva 15y ago
      Sure, you have a page of information which is more informative. And you have Google, which is probably even more informative. And you could start phoning college professors and get even more information. There's a point where the cost of gathering information exceeds its value. Unfortunately, that point sometimes comes halfway through reading a resume.
    - n09n 15y ago
      When you're comparing the candidate against someone else with the exact same resume that differs only by name, the rest of that information is not useful, because it doesn't help you distinguish between the choices.
      - kenjackson 15y ago
        But isn't that the point of the statement. It would be like saying that if you saw the candidate in person and they did the job equally well, but one had dark skin and the other light skin, so we used their skin color to distinguish -- but then trying to argue that skin color isn't really a proxy for race, since some black people could be lighter than a white person. To me it just sounds like racism covered up.
        hackinthebochs 15y ago
        Thanks for this. I swear the mental gymnastics people go through to convince themselves their biases aren't about race are amazing (note I'm not calling anyone racist here). First thing we all need to do is be willing to flat out admit our own faults without any rationalizations. That's the only way we'll ever be able to overcome it.
- ldd- 15y ago
  In response to cperciva's comment . . . Statistically? Sure . . . on an individual basis? Should be irrelevant . . . that's why we base employment decisions upon the resume of the individual and not based upon the resume of the parents.
- jcampbell1 15y ago
  This is not completely true. Of the 10 or so people I have hired, 3 had resume names different from their legal names. One had a Pakistani name, another was chinese, and one had a ghetto name. It is well known that you can put whatever name on your resume you want. It is not until after you are hired that you have to submit documentation.
bootload 15y ago
"... Names say something about the people who pick them. ..." There is a freakonomics discussion about the power of name choice in "Super Freakonomics", CH6, "Perfect Parenting, Part II; or: Would a Roshanda by Any Other Name Smell as Sweet?" which hints at this ~ http://freakonomicsbook.com/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/chapter-6/ http://freakonomicsbook.com/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/ch... and http://www.slate.com/id/2116449/ http://www.slate.com/id/2116449/ though the message I got was the signaling the name gave to others & the recipient of the name mattered more.
hackinthebochs 15y ago
I think you're trying too hard to explain how a bias against black names isn't a bias against the racial group. The article said they used archetypal black names such as "Latoya" or "Tyrone". Taking this at face value, there is no indication of lower socioeconomic level unless you're taking being black itself as the indication. We're not talking about made up ghetto names that we all love to disparage these days. Being biased against standard <racial group> names is in fact a bias against <racial group>.
- rayiner 15y ago
  You don't see a lot of black guys named "Tyrone" walking around Harvard. Latoya and Tyrone are common black names, and they're also strongly associated with lower socioeconomic level because lots of blacks are in a lower socioeconomic level. The sorts of professional, educated black families that send their kids to good schools and from there to good jobs don't name them these lower-class names.
  - kenjackson 15y ago
    Tyrone is just not a common name at all anymore. You're not likely to meet someone named Tyrone at a Crip hangout.
  - hackinthebochs 15y ago
    So you're saying that any black name is automatically associated with lower class. I would contend that this proof that bias against names is bias against the race. Edit: just to explain a bit more: my point is that Tyrone and Latoya are not indicative of lower class, any more than simply being black is. Thus a bias against those names is a bias against black in general.
- chc 15y ago
  If I recall correctly, names that are considered distinctively black but not actually African do tend to be associated with lower-class blacks. It's unfortunate but AFAIK that's the way the world is, largely because blacks historically have felt pressure to seem more "white" as they've moved up in society. So it's hard to disambiguate the two factors. I'd bet you'd see a similar bias against lower-class white names like Bubba or Leroy or most of the names here: http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/forum/topic88623.html http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/forum/topic88623.ht... If it is purely economic, you probably also wouldn't see as much bias against black-sounding names that don't have negative connotations such as Michael Jackson (it might get a smirk, but if it is indeed about economic bias, the name of a prestigious black man should be a good demonstration).
ajays 15y ago
"Names say something about the people who pick them. Yes, race; but also education, socioeconomic level, and community...." You are forgetting one not-so-minor fact that the resumes were _identical_ to the white ones'. Are you saying that the recipients just looked at the names and didn't even bother to read the resumes??
- cperciva 15y ago
  I'm saying that having seen the names people didn't read the resumes as closely, yes.
  - Someone 15y ago
    It could also mean that they read them differently. Say they took two years more than normal for high school. On the one hand, that can trigger thoughts about laziness or lack of intelligence. On the other, it can trigger thoughts about perseverence (many others would have given up), or about how the recruiter 'lost' two years in high school, too, because his father died in a house fire. Fighting one's prejudices is really hard.

gcb 15y ago

i think i got the parent comment's point. it's not about race in this case, but assuming --even if with the back of the mind, how the candidate would fit into the cultural aspect of the organization. Imagine a guy in a organization that has a heavy crunch time every friday until late if needed. in the several interviews when he mention that, he noticed that the group of people that turn down the position because of this is of some cultural group. The next time he is hiring, even if only on the back of his mind, he will go past the candidates that have names indicating that said cultural group, because his brain will fast forward to all the time wasted interviewing and then being turned down. it's not like the guy has anything against that group. In the article, the point made is far worse than this example. From a moral point of view. as it hints to a macro-social preconception on race.