5 ms·

I think it's less "factually incorrect" and more "nuanced and incomplete". As a European that moved between countries, I was very surprised when I learned that

I think it's less "factually incorrect" and more "nuanced and incomplete". As a European that moved between countries, I was very surprised when I learned that SEPA allows a "pull" mechanism even exists. I lived 30 years in Latvia without knowing this is a feature in SEPA because every single payment is a "push" mechanism. I'm not sure if banks can turn this feature off, or if it just culturally never gained traction. On the other hand, payments via banks are fairly widespread C2B, because every bank offers a (custom and horrible) API that merchants can implement. So users can authenticate directly with their bank as if it were PayPal, and authorize a SEPA payment to the merchant's bank account. In fact, services that care about user identity, will often use these bank APIs to perform authentication with a high degree of confidence about the received user information. Then I moved to France, and every bank interaction is "pull" based. While friction in Latvia came from authenticating before initiating the "push", in France the friction comes from agreeing to direct debiting, and signing various authorization slips. Sometimes electronically, but sometimes you have to send them by mail before you can start paying for a long-running service by bank (this makes it very undesirable for one-off purchases. In fact it is so cumbersome, that I prefer to pay for many services by credit card every month) > I doubt the claims of very high fraud rate. If I provide my account number to a service provider, they can debit it without me explicitly authorizing them (I have to sign an authorization usually, but there's nothing "technically" blocking the counterparty). I suppose that could lead to high fraud rates.

mdp2021 5y ago
> if banks can turn this feature off You have to demand it. (Some of them will propose their solution.) > if it just culturally never gained traction. Very few people have read the PSD2 directive. (This friend of mine met a bank consultant who mixed it with a gaming console.)
- BlueTemplar 5y ago
  Yeah, lol, I remember when SEPA pull first came around about half a decade ago, and how many months later, I had to explain to my own bank how they were supposed to give me whitelist and/or blacklist options for the pullers. They claimed never have heard about it, while that directive was only a couple of pages long and readable by someone that didn't knew about any technical banking details !
brnt 5y ago
If you like pull transfers, try the Netherlands. I was surprised at the low number of businesses offering it in France. In the NL, with nearly every recurring payment, including government, they are almost always the only way to pay: setting them up with an accord to direct debit your account.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Government payments in the Netherlands can be done in installments using direct payments, but the direct debit ones are the easiest and that is why many people use them. Far less chance of missing a payment. But if you want to do it yourself for every payment you can. Better not miss any though.
  - brnt 5y ago
    _If_ you get your salary on/before the 25th. Because changing the invoice date is almost never possible, and government agencies are even explicit about that.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      If you live that close to zero you have other problems. I would highly recommend reviewing your finances in great detail to figure out how you are going to create a small buffer.
      - brnt 5y ago
        Or, you know, your employer doesn't pay you the 25th. But explaining anything outside of the typically Dutch circumstances is an unfortunate part of life for the not typically Dutch in the Netherlands. Its a deeply cultural thing, this extreme hang towards conformation to a defacto 'normal'. FYI: millions of Dutch have these kinds of problems. Look up the working poor, its a big group there. IMHO all native Dutch should be forced a few weeks internship with a budget council service, there are so many incorrect preconceptions about poverty. Including who it hits, which definitely includes people who thought they could never possibly be hit, did their finances right, etc.
jacquesm 5y ago
SEPA 'pull', aka merchant initiated transfers require a one time authorization, repeat debits require a one time authorization for the first payment and can be re-run afterwards (used for subscriptions), and can be revoked up to 90 days after the payment was done.
- mdp2021 5y ago
  > a one time authorization Yes, but how well defined, or how loose, is that "authorization"?
  - elric 5y ago
    The account owner can control the frequency and the maximum amount per period. It's not the case that some random entity can just grab all your money.
    - mdp2021 5y ago
      > The account owner can control Unfortunately, that depends on the implementation of security the bank adopted. I assume you are mentioning a detail in the PSD2 directive. The banks, especially after national legislation following the directive, may adapt but not overlap it. Take as an example the rule in the directive, that NFC based payments should require PIN based confirmation every five transactions: not all banks implemented this.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    With my bank that requires me to use a device they sent me (a hardware token), my bank card, my pin and a secondary authorization where I use the hardware token to process a challenge and then type in the response.
  - ErrantX 5y ago
    Pretty good now; the legislation mandates multi-factor authentication by the issuing bank. So customer has to prove presence directly with their bank to authorise the payment. There is also dynamic linking (ie you are shown the amount but also a unique code that the payment requestor also showed you) so you are confident it is the same transaction.
narag 5y ago
In fact it is so cumbersome, that I prefer to pay for many services by credit card every month) Phone and the gym are the only services that I do not pay by card, but not even by my choosing. Netflix gave me no option. Utilities are bulk included with the rent (transfer) so yeah, just those two. Oh and I know the card number and codes by heart in case I need to buy anything. Verification is done by SMS.
ThrowAwayIRUK 5y ago
SEPA has 4 message types, currently: - PUSH: - SCT Standard - SCT Instant - PULL: - SDD Core - SDD B2B As a bank, you are not forced to support all of them; also, it depends on the local consumer behaviour: in some countries, pull mechanisms are not that widely accepted DISCLAIMER: Lead Payment Engineer at an European Challenger Bank, i'm implementing that stuff in the backend, i'm mainly talking to our central bank.
AnssiH 5y ago
> I'm not sure if banks can turn this feature off, or if it just culturally never gained traction. Yes, the accounts in my bank (in Finland) default to SEPA Direct Debit off. For recurring utility payments etc. we instead use Finvoice e-invoicing (https://www.finanssiala.fi/en/topics/finvoice-standard/ https://www.finanssiala.fi/en/topics/finvoice-standard/). The customer enables e-invoices on a per-issuer basis directly from their bank web interface, with an option for auto-pay and payment limits. The payments are processed as regular SEPA payments. The e-invoice goes directly to customer's bank, replacing paper/e-mail invoices. For paying one-time online purchases the user is redirected to their bank to authorize a one-time SEPA transfer (other non-SEPA payment methods like cards and MobilePay are common, too).

mdp2021 5y ago

> if banks can turn this feature off You have to demand it. (Some of them will propose their solution.) > if it just culturally never gained traction. Very few people have read the PSD2 directive. (This friend of mine met a bank consultant who mixed it with a gaming console.)

BlueTemplar 5y ago
Yeah, lol, I remember when SEPA pull first came around about half a decade ago, and how many months later, I had to explain to my own bank how they were supposed to give me whitelist and/or blacklist options for the pullers. They claimed never have heard about it, while that directive was only a couple of pages long and readable by someone that didn't knew about any technical banking details !

brnt 5y ago

If you like pull transfers, try the Netherlands. I was surprised at the low number of businesses offering it in France. In the NL, with nearly every recurring payment, including government, they are almost always the only way to pay: setting them up with an accord to direct debit your account.

jacquesm 5y ago
Government payments in the Netherlands can be done in installments using direct payments, but the direct debit ones are the easiest and that is why many people use them. Far less chance of missing a payment. But if you want to do it yourself for every payment you can. Better not miss any though.
- brnt 5y ago
  _If_ you get your salary on/before the 25th. Because changing the invoice date is almost never possible, and government agencies are even explicit about that.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    If you live that close to zero you have other problems. I would highly recommend reviewing your finances in great detail to figure out how you are going to create a small buffer.
    - brnt 5y ago
      Or, you know, your employer doesn't pay you the 25th. But explaining anything outside of the typically Dutch circumstances is an unfortunate part of life for the not typically Dutch in the Netherlands. Its a deeply cultural thing, this extreme hang towards conformation to a defacto 'normal'. FYI: millions of Dutch have these kinds of problems. Look up the working poor, its a big group there. IMHO all native Dutch should be forced a few weeks internship with a budget council service, there are so many incorrect preconceptions about poverty. Including who it hits, which definitely includes people who thought they could never possibly be hit, did their finances right, etc.

jacquesm 5y ago

SEPA 'pull', aka merchant initiated transfers require a one time authorization, repeat debits require a one time authorization for the first payment and can be re-run afterwards (used for subscriptions), and can be revoked up to 90 days after the payment was done.

mdp2021 5y ago
> a one time authorization Yes, but how well defined, or how loose, is that "authorization"?
- elric 5y ago
  The account owner can control the frequency and the maximum amount per period. It's not the case that some random entity can just grab all your money.
  - mdp2021 5y ago
    > The account owner can control Unfortunately, that depends on the implementation of security the bank adopted. I assume you are mentioning a detail in the PSD2 directive. The banks, especially after national legislation following the directive, may adapt but not overlap it. Take as an example the rule in the directive, that NFC based payments should require PIN based confirmation every five transactions: not all banks implemented this.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  With my bank that requires me to use a device they sent me (a hardware token), my bank card, my pin and a secondary authorization where I use the hardware token to process a challenge and then type in the response.
- ErrantX 5y ago
  Pretty good now; the legislation mandates multi-factor authentication by the issuing bank. So customer has to prove presence directly with their bank to authorise the payment. There is also dynamic linking (ie you are shown the amount but also a unique code that the payment requestor also showed you) so you are confident it is the same transaction.

narag 5y ago

In fact it is so cumbersome, that I prefer to pay for many services by credit card every month) Phone and the gym are the only services that I do not pay by card, but not even by my choosing. Netflix gave me no option. Utilities are bulk included with the rent (transfer) so yeah, just those two. Oh and I know the card number and codes by heart in case I need to buy anything. Verification is done by SMS.

ThrowAwayIRUK 5y ago

SEPA has 4 message types, currently: - PUSH: - SCT Standard - SCT Instant - PULL: - SDD Core - SDD B2B As a bank, you are not forced to support all of them; also, it depends on the local consumer behaviour: in some countries, pull mechanisms are not that widely accepted DISCLAIMER: Lead Payment Engineer at an European Challenger Bank, i'm implementing that stuff in the backend, i'm mainly talking to our central bank.

AnssiH 5y ago

> I'm not sure if banks can turn this feature off, or if it just culturally never gained traction. Yes, the accounts in my bank (in Finland) default to SEPA Direct Debit off. For recurring utility payments etc. we instead use Finvoice e-invoicing (https://www.finanssiala.fi/en/topics/finvoice-standard/ https://www.finanssiala.fi/en/topics/finvoice-standard/). The customer enables e-invoices on a per-issuer basis directly from their bank web interface, with an option for auto-pay and payment limits. The payments are processed as regular SEPA payments. The e-invoice goes directly to customer's bank, replacing paper/e-mail invoices. For paying one-time online purchases the user is redirected to their bank to authorize a one-time SEPA transfer (other non-SEPA payment methods like cards and MobilePay are common, too).