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I find it interesting that the traffic we experience every day is also what is causing the issues with supply chains. I feel that it is glossed over. Nobody ta

I find it interesting that the traffic we experience every day is also what is causing the issues with supply chains. I feel that it is glossed over. Nobody talks about the larger effects of the traffic in US cities beyond: "You sit in the car longer for work.", not "your meat is expensive because traffic is bad." Cities are always very hesitant to introduce measures to reduce demand on our roads. I wonder if it is intentional that nobody talks about this.

kiklion 5y ago
> Nobody talks about the larger effects of the traffic in US cities I always assumed truckers took mandatory breaks during rush hour. Here in Charlotte, traffic is minimal except during rush hour.
opportune 5y ago
Reducing demand on roads is a tough sell politically when most people are still car-reliant. People don’t see themselves as beneficiaries at all when they hear “congestion pricing” or “dedicated bus lanes” or “increased funding for public transit.” In this case even that’s not being done. The government is just not continuing to subsidize car-based transit via roads at an adequate level to keep up with demand for car usage. I do think a big part of the problem is that you need a critical mass of public transit before people can really ditch their cars. The network needs to be able to reach far away and enable more than just commuting to a desk job in the city center. And it needs times to remain in that state for all the businesses to rebalance around the public transit network (ie less reliance on huge shopping centers and strip malls only accessible by car). As a result I think you probably get a bit of a U shaped cost:benefit curve wrt funding of transit infrastructure.
- honkycat 5y ago
  I say this as a pretty leftist person: I also want free stuff. But I am an adult who understands that our roads, cars, and congestion cost money and it needs to be addressed.
discardable_dan 5y ago
One very sinister outcome of measures to reduce road demand is that it unfairly impacts the lower and lower-middle classes. People who work in high-paying jobs wouldn't think twice about spending $10 on a road charge, but someone working minimum wage simply can't afford that on a daily commute. Carbon taxes are often subject to this criticism as well: if you tax everyone who uses a car, then the lower class simply can't afford to. Truckers and delivery workers still have to, though, because that's the job, and either the company, or, more likely, the consumers absorb the cost of any such taxes. On one hand, it would solve the problem as described, but on the other it would significantly impact the people who are the most sensitive to such impacts, economically speaking. There is also, in the US at least, a strong argument to be made about Freedom of Movement. I don't know if it has ever been tried in court, but I would be interested to see the result of such a court case.
- cardiffspaceman 5y ago
  > There is also, in the US at least, a strong argument to be made about Freedom of Movement. I don't know if it has ever been tried in court, but I would be interested to see the result of such a court case. I have often suspected that merely charging a toll for using a road creates records which could be subpoenaed. Now say you have a club that meets to discuss edgy topics concerning the government of the day. Do they want their travels to be recorded? Now, this seems pretty quaint because around here, they use license-plate scans to reinforce the automated collection of tolls, and who knows what else is going on. FWIW I'm on the same frequency with respect to the disproportionate impact that road pricing and road usage reduction measures have on people with low-paying jobs.
- honkycat 5y ago
  I have heard this argument before, but there is an easy work-around: low-income people can request an exemption and if they meet the requirements they will be exempt from the taxes. Though honestly, at the end of the day, there are large corporations making huge profits whose workers commute to their office every day, and they should be the ones footing the bill. I think of my local situation in Portland, Oregon, where many people in Vancouver Washington commute to portland every day and do not pay a DIME for the road infrastructure they clog up.

kiklion 5y ago

> Nobody talks about the larger effects of the traffic in US cities I always assumed truckers took mandatory breaks during rush hour. Here in Charlotte, traffic is minimal except during rush hour.

opportune 5y ago

Reducing demand on roads is a tough sell politically when most people are still car-reliant. People don’t see themselves as beneficiaries at all when they hear “congestion pricing” or “dedicated bus lanes” or “increased funding for public transit.” In this case even that’s not being done. The government is just not continuing to subsidize car-based transit via roads at an adequate level to keep up with demand for car usage. I do think a big part of the problem is that you need a critical mass of public transit before people can really ditch their cars. The network needs to be able to reach far away and enable more than just commuting to a desk job in the city center. And it needs times to remain in that state for all the businesses to rebalance around the public transit network (ie less reliance on huge shopping centers and strip malls only accessible by car). As a result I think you probably get a bit of a U shaped cost:benefit curve wrt funding of transit infrastructure.

honkycat 5y ago
I say this as a pretty leftist person: I also want free stuff. But I am an adult who understands that our roads, cars, and congestion cost money and it needs to be addressed.

discardable_dan 5y ago

One very sinister outcome of measures to reduce road demand is that it unfairly impacts the lower and lower-middle classes. People who work in high-paying jobs wouldn't think twice about spending $10 on a road charge, but someone working minimum wage simply can't afford that on a daily commute. Carbon taxes are often subject to this criticism as well: if you tax everyone who uses a car, then the lower class simply can't afford to. Truckers and delivery workers still have to, though, because that's the job, and either the company, or, more likely, the consumers absorb the cost of any such taxes. On one hand, it would solve the problem as described, but on the other it would significantly impact the people who are the most sensitive to such impacts, economically speaking. There is also, in the US at least, a strong argument to be made about Freedom of Movement. I don't know if it has ever been tried in court, but I would be interested to see the result of such a court case.

cardiffspaceman 5y ago
> There is also, in the US at least, a strong argument to be made about Freedom of Movement. I don't know if it has ever been tried in court, but I would be interested to see the result of such a court case. I have often suspected that merely charging a toll for using a road creates records which could be subpoenaed. Now say you have a club that meets to discuss edgy topics concerning the government of the day. Do they want their travels to be recorded? Now, this seems pretty quaint because around here, they use license-plate scans to reinforce the automated collection of tolls, and who knows what else is going on. FWIW I'm on the same frequency with respect to the disproportionate impact that road pricing and road usage reduction measures have on people with low-paying jobs.
honkycat 5y ago
I have heard this argument before, but there is an easy work-around: low-income people can request an exemption and if they meet the requirements they will be exempt from the taxes. Though honestly, at the end of the day, there are large corporations making huge profits whose workers commute to their office every day, and they should be the ones footing the bill. I think of my local situation in Portland, Oregon, where many people in Vancouver Washington commute to portland every day and do not pay a DIME for the road infrastructure they clog up.