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Well, maybe we shouldn't make the supply chain so long. Shipping things 5000 miles should not be cheaper than making them closer to home. Although shipping is

Well, maybe we shouldn't make the supply chain so long. Shipping things 5000 miles should not be cheaper than making them closer to home. Although shipping is astonishingly efficient, a retroactive carbon tax (not just for the current emission, but one that doubles it for back-charges) should be instituted on shipping worldwide in bulk. That will incentivize local sourcing. It's not just for long-term global warming. We are a medium-scale disaster (small asteroid stike, supervolcano explosion, megatsunami) from worldwide starvation due to supply chain disruption. I'm really glad alternative energy is so competitive, because it is local generation, and not just in the local powerplant sense. Poor places actually are a lot more resilient to disruption because everyone has a cow in the backyard and a garden. Similarly home solar and storage are so much more disaster resilient. Perverse economic incentives aren't just on the liberal side. "Free market" economics with its unfunded externalities is another kind of perverse incentive that has led to these ridiculous rube goldberg supply chains.

14 5y ago
I don’t agree with all you write but I will say I have been thinking about building a solar LED green house with battery pack to run it winter or at night. In summer just run it off the sun but as winter approaches fire up a LED grow light for extra light hours. Then I could cut my cost of food a lot but most importantly be resilient to supply chain disruptions.
- hattmall 5y ago
  I would really like to see some math / data on what amount of power / battery etc you need and what crops to grow and survive off of. Basically how much greenhouse space and electricity do you need per person and what would you be eating. We grow a seasonal garden, much larger than most people I know, about 3 acres and we don't keep tedious records or really optimize it but it seems like it would fall far short of being enough food to live off of.
  - howLongHowLong 5y ago
    3 acres could definitely provide one with most enough to live on if one keeps animals, preserves surplus, and expands their definition of seasonal. "Four-Season Gardening" by Elliot Coleman, a great book on the subject, shows a green house strategy that involves no added energy (in Maine, no less). I imagine thoughtful addition of active control could improve output. The hardest part is growing enough protein, which is why livestock is sort of a necessity for subsistence living unless you live someplace with accessible and abundant fish or game. One past solution was collectively owned and worked acreage devoted to beans, milk or similar, though I suppose it could be argued that leads us back here, eventually, once someone gets the idea to sell the surplus of that. (It did once, already) TL;DR Check out "Four-season Gardening" by Elliot Coleman for interesting ideas on expanding your growing season without adding electricity
  - dpflug 5y ago
    Just to map out the problem space: https://www.waldeneffect.org/blog/Calories_per_acre_for_various_foods/ https://www.waldeneffect.org/blog/Calories_per_acre_for_vari... https://www.quora.com/What-crop-including-tree-crops-produces-the-most-calories-per-acre https://www.quora.com/What-crop-including-tree-crops-produce... Most peoples' gardens aren't exclusively growing staple crops, so some land would need to be set aside for nutritional completeness. Calories/acre isn't a complete picture; root vegetables require less processing than grains. In a "collapse of supply chains" situation, that needs to be included. If you're using them to supplement sunlight, the electricity required depends on your local climate, efficiency of your lights, etc. I've found that the most readily available data on that is from marijuana enthusiasts, amusingly.
  - 14 5y ago
    Well the LED light I plan to build eventually would use around 560 watts on it's highest setting. Then I would plan my battery storage according to that max number and the max number of hours I would estimate I need to run it at that power. I haven't done the math yet. I don't expect I could completely cover my needs for calories at such a small scale of one light but it could very effectively grow things like peppers and other crops that have really gone up in cost at the grocery store. If done right a light like that could easily grow in a 5'/5' space with things like peppers on the top and more shaded plants below. The goal would be reduce my dependency of the supply chain but in reality would take a lot to get completely off of it. You would need to do a much bigger garden so maybe the led light gets me the head start my plants need to thrive when the sun hours just are not there like early spring then out into the garden when the sun is there into summer. Hope that made sense.
chmod600 5y ago
"Shipping things 5000 miles should not be cheaper than making them closer to home." The word "should" is used to contrast with reality. Crafting policy around something other than reality is not a good start. Surely there are some costs hidden somewhere, and that distorts things. But if water transport is not the right way to do things, then there must be a huge worldwide conspiracy that's lasted for millenia.
- baq 5y ago
  Reflexivity is the point of policies, no? It’s trivial to make local production cost competitive with customs, tax, subsidies, etc. It’s the second order effects that are dangerous if not considered.
- tomByrer 5y ago
  EPA regulations & labor prices (some blame unions) have a real cost impact on "Made in USA". Also why efficient mass transport (eg new bullet train lines) are too costly to build in USA.
- Tijdreiziger 5y ago
  The reality is that carbon emissions are killing our living environment. Current policies fail to account for this.
  - chmod600 5y ago
    And if we did account for carbon properly, then would everyone get all their goods made in scratch from local producers? No, a lot of stuff would still come from 5000 miles away by boat. Because it is really that efficient, whether it "should" be or not.
    - Tijdreiziger 5y ago
      All? Certainly not. More? Very probably. Invest the earnings from a carbon tax in carbon-negative projects (such as renewable energy), and you've got a win-win situation.
PixyMisa 5y ago
"Shipping things 5000 miles should not be cheaper than making them closer to home." Why not?
- monkpit 5y ago
  Yes, similar to code smells, the word “should” in these contexts is a bit of a “thought smell”.
koheripbal 5y ago
The reason is labor costs are 100x different between, for example, Indonesia vs US/EU.
Ekaros 5y ago
It is all about scale and efficiency. Get a massive ship and fill it with stuff move over weeks over sea. Compare cost per unit there to transporting single unit from let's say next town... Sea freight is massively efficient per unit/distance. So it is no wonder it is cheap.

14 5y ago

I don’t agree with all you write but I will say I have been thinking about building a solar LED green house with battery pack to run it winter or at night. In summer just run it off the sun but as winter approaches fire up a LED grow light for extra light hours. Then I could cut my cost of food a lot but most importantly be resilient to supply chain disruptions.

hattmall 5y ago
I would really like to see some math / data on what amount of power / battery etc you need and what crops to grow and survive off of. Basically how much greenhouse space and electricity do you need per person and what would you be eating. We grow a seasonal garden, much larger than most people I know, about 3 acres and we don't keep tedious records or really optimize it but it seems like it would fall far short of being enough food to live off of.
- howLongHowLong 5y ago
  3 acres could definitely provide one with most enough to live on if one keeps animals, preserves surplus, and expands their definition of seasonal. "Four-Season Gardening" by Elliot Coleman, a great book on the subject, shows a green house strategy that involves no added energy (in Maine, no less). I imagine thoughtful addition of active control could improve output. The hardest part is growing enough protein, which is why livestock is sort of a necessity for subsistence living unless you live someplace with accessible and abundant fish or game. One past solution was collectively owned and worked acreage devoted to beans, milk or similar, though I suppose it could be argued that leads us back here, eventually, once someone gets the idea to sell the surplus of that. (It did once, already) TL;DR Check out "Four-season Gardening" by Elliot Coleman for interesting ideas on expanding your growing season without adding electricity
- dpflug 5y ago
  Just to map out the problem space: https://www.waldeneffect.org/blog/Calories_per_acre_for_various_foods/ https://www.waldeneffect.org/blog/Calories_per_acre_for_vari... https://www.quora.com/What-crop-including-tree-crops-produces-the-most-calories-per-acre https://www.quora.com/What-crop-including-tree-crops-produce... Most peoples' gardens aren't exclusively growing staple crops, so some land would need to be set aside for nutritional completeness. Calories/acre isn't a complete picture; root vegetables require less processing than grains. In a "collapse of supply chains" situation, that needs to be included. If you're using them to supplement sunlight, the electricity required depends on your local climate, efficiency of your lights, etc. I've found that the most readily available data on that is from marijuana enthusiasts, amusingly.
- 14 5y ago
  Well the LED light I plan to build eventually would use around 560 watts on it's highest setting. Then I would plan my battery storage according to that max number and the max number of hours I would estimate I need to run it at that power. I haven't done the math yet. I don't expect I could completely cover my needs for calories at such a small scale of one light but it could very effectively grow things like peppers and other crops that have really gone up in cost at the grocery store. If done right a light like that could easily grow in a 5'/5' space with things like peppers on the top and more shaded plants below. The goal would be reduce my dependency of the supply chain but in reality would take a lot to get completely off of it. You would need to do a much bigger garden so maybe the led light gets me the head start my plants need to thrive when the sun hours just are not there like early spring then out into the garden when the sun is there into summer. Hope that made sense.

chmod600 5y ago

"Shipping things 5000 miles should not be cheaper than making them closer to home." The word "should" is used to contrast with reality. Crafting policy around something other than reality is not a good start. Surely there are some costs hidden somewhere, and that distorts things. But if water transport is not the right way to do things, then there must be a huge worldwide conspiracy that's lasted for millenia.

baq 5y ago
Reflexivity is the point of policies, no? It’s trivial to make local production cost competitive with customs, tax, subsidies, etc. It’s the second order effects that are dangerous if not considered.
tomByrer 5y ago
EPA regulations & labor prices (some blame unions) have a real cost impact on "Made in USA". Also why efficient mass transport (eg new bullet train lines) are too costly to build in USA.
Tijdreiziger 5y ago
The reality is that carbon emissions are killing our living environment. Current policies fail to account for this.
- chmod600 5y ago
  And if we did account for carbon properly, then would everyone get all their goods made in scratch from local producers? No, a lot of stuff would still come from 5000 miles away by boat. Because it is really that efficient, whether it "should" be or not.
  - Tijdreiziger 5y ago
    All? Certainly not. More? Very probably. Invest the earnings from a carbon tax in carbon-negative projects (such as renewable energy), and you've got a win-win situation.

PixyMisa 5y ago

"Shipping things 5000 miles should not be cheaper than making them closer to home." Why not?

monkpit 5y ago
Yes, similar to code smells, the word “should” in these contexts is a bit of a “thought smell”.

koheripbal 5y ago

The reason is labor costs are 100x different between, for example, Indonesia vs US/EU.

Ekaros 5y ago

It is all about scale and efficiency. Get a massive ship and fill it with stuff move over weeks over sea. Compare cost per unit there to transporting single unit from let's say next town... Sea freight is massively efficient per unit/distance. So it is no wonder it is cheap.