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You can't dismiss the fact that hiring python is hard. You think you're getting a good programmer, because they know all the leetcode tricks, but that person t

You can't dismiss the fact that hiring python is hard. You think you're getting a good programmer, because they know all the leetcode tricks, but that person turns out to be a dud.

edgyquant 5y ago
Can you elaborate? If someone can pump out leet code I would assume they would be a half decent programmer and it would just take some time for them to be as productive as you wanted. Then again I’m mostly self taught and never done leet code and I still manage to be a good programmer according to those I’ve worked with
- dnautics 5y ago
  I personally think that leetcode-interview-passers that I have had to work with do poorly with actually useful tasks like, writing organized code, writing tests, documenting, etc.
  - edgyquant 5y ago
    Probably but those are things they can pick up on the job pretty quick, while it’s a lot harder to teach leet code style problem solving while solving actual business problems.
    - dnautics 5y ago
      Maybe you have a different experience, but none of the actual business problems I deal with are leet-code style. Then again, I have recently stopped calling myself a software developer (and have long since stopped calling myself a software engineer) in favor of the more accurate "software plumber". But I imagine, even coding tasks that require algorithmic knowledge and insight, are benefitted from well-organized and well-designed code. Doing that correctly is often a matter of insight and judgement, and I think often those are not "easily learned".
jreese 5y ago
Isn't that true for any language? Why are you hiring for language skills rather than problem solving aptitude and conceptual fundamentals?
- dnautics 5y ago
  > Why are you hiring for language skills rather than problem solving aptitude and conceptual fundamentals? All I'm saying is that signal to noise for the common tests you give for 'problem solving aptitude and conceptual fundamentals', is much lower when you are hiring for a python position. You think you're hiring for those things, but you're actually hiring for leetcode-optimizers. I mean, I'm not trying to do hire like that, and I think I have an interview that tries to test that effectively, but I have had to deal with the downstream effects of people who are doing hiring like this, and that has been a real problem for me.
  - jreese 5y ago
    > when you are hiring for a python position If you instead hire for "engineering" positions, without caring about what languages the candidate knows, you can interview for their ability to solve practical programming exercises [1] in whatever language they are most familiar/comfortable with. Maybe this only works at FAANG-level hiring, but in these contexts, top tier candidates can get things done in any language, and that's really what matters, no? But more to your point, I've generally found candidates that pick Python (or Ruby/Perl/etc) can actually accomplish more–and therefore prove their capabilities–in the space of an interview simply because they're picking a more expressive language. Bad candidates will prove they are bad candidates no matter what language they choose. 1: Eg, reading/manipulating files, merging/filtering/sorting data, generating and processing multi-dimensional data structures, etc.
    - dnautics 5y ago
      I personally have an interview that essentially tests if you can produce well-organized code for a challenging algorithm that is persented as-is (the steps to the algorithm are provided, so no cleverness is necessary, you are dinged in my interview for using cleverness if it introduces errors). But, I do not control hiring for all people I have to work with.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> You can't dismiss the fact that hiring python is hard. I deny that hiring Python is hard beyond “hiring is hard”. > You think you're getting a good programmer, because they know all the leetcode tricks, Unless I want someone for a role that is very much like reproducing leetcode tricks, I don't think I would think someone is good for it because they are good at those. In fact, leetcode is mercilessly mocked as being almost completely irrelevant as a positive signal for hiring, though it may be useful as a filtering tool to reduce an overwhelming volume of applicants to a manageable one where high rates of both false negatives and false positives, but some slight advantage over just randomly discarding applicants, is tolerable.
- dnautics 5y ago
  Do you have absolute control over the hiring of every person you work with? Not all of us do.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Do you have absolute control over the hiring of every person you work with? That's...a complete topic switch and irrelevant. The discussion I was responding to is about the challenges facing whoever does have control.
    - dnautics 5y ago
      Well considering I made the initial statement, no, it's not. A company I used to work for once hired exclusively from the must-have-Python-experience pool (not my decision) and the cto fawned over how well he solved this "well-known-leetcode problem", and he utterly failed my problem, which tests for actually useful competency... of course he was hired -- and turned out to be a complete lemon. I remember that hiring round distinctly, everyone we interviewed for that position (n~10) was competent for the leetcode problem but never did basic things in my interview like "write tests", "don't try to make a complicated algorithm", etc, even when told explicitly to do/ not to do those things. Outside of that I interviewed several of my friends (I know them from a non-programming context, so I don't know their competency) who were predominantly python devs, and completely noped out of them for the same reasons (and these were my friends).

You can't dismiss the fact that hiring python is hard. You think you're getting a good programmer, because they know all the leetcode tricks, but that person turns out to be a dud.

edgyquant 5y ago

Can you elaborate? If someone can pump out leet code I would assume they would be a half decent programmer and it would just take some time for them to be as productive as you wanted. Then again I’m mostly self taught and never done leet code and I still manage to be a good programmer according to those I’ve worked with

dnautics 5y ago
I personally think that leetcode-interview-passers that I have had to work with do poorly with actually useful tasks like, writing organized code, writing tests, documenting, etc.
- edgyquant 5y ago
  Probably but those are things they can pick up on the job pretty quick, while it’s a lot harder to teach leet code style problem solving while solving actual business problems.
  - dnautics 5y ago
    Maybe you have a different experience, but none of the actual business problems I deal with are leet-code style. Then again, I have recently stopped calling myself a software developer (and have long since stopped calling myself a software engineer) in favor of the more accurate "software plumber". But I imagine, even coding tasks that require algorithmic knowledge and insight, are benefitted from well-organized and well-designed code. Doing that correctly is often a matter of insight and judgement, and I think often those are not "easily learned".

jreese 5y ago

Isn't that true for any language? Why are you hiring for language skills rather than problem solving aptitude and conceptual fundamentals?

dnautics 5y ago
> Why are you hiring for language skills rather than problem solving aptitude and conceptual fundamentals? All I'm saying is that signal to noise for the common tests you give for 'problem solving aptitude and conceptual fundamentals', is much lower when you are hiring for a python position. You think you're hiring for those things, but you're actually hiring for leetcode-optimizers. I mean, I'm not trying to do hire like that, and I think I have an interview that tries to test that effectively, but I have had to deal with the downstream effects of people who are doing hiring like this, and that has been a real problem for me.
- jreese 5y ago
  > when you are hiring for a python position If you instead hire for "engineering" positions, without caring about what languages the candidate knows, you can interview for their ability to solve practical programming exercises [1] in whatever language they are most familiar/comfortable with. Maybe this only works at FAANG-level hiring, but in these contexts, top tier candidates can get things done in any language, and that's really what matters, no? But more to your point, I've generally found candidates that pick Python (or Ruby/Perl/etc) can actually accomplish more–and therefore prove their capabilities–in the space of an interview simply because they're picking a more expressive language. Bad candidates will prove they are bad candidates no matter what language they choose. 1: Eg, reading/manipulating files, merging/filtering/sorting data, generating and processing multi-dimensional data structures, etc.
  - dnautics 5y ago
    I personally have an interview that essentially tests if you can produce well-organized code for a challenging algorithm that is persented as-is (the steps to the algorithm are provided, so no cleverness is necessary, you are dinged in my interview for using cleverness if it introduces errors). But, I do not control hiring for all people I have to work with.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> You can't dismiss the fact that hiring python is hard. I deny that hiring Python is hard beyond “hiring is hard”. > You think you're getting a good programmer, because they know all the leetcode tricks, Unless I want someone for a role that is very much like reproducing leetcode tricks, I don't think I would think someone is good for it because they are good at those. In fact, leetcode is mercilessly mocked as being almost completely irrelevant as a positive signal for hiring, though it may be useful as a filtering tool to reduce an overwhelming volume of applicants to a manageable one where high rates of both false negatives and false positives, but some slight advantage over just randomly discarding applicants, is tolerable.

dnautics 5y ago
Do you have absolute control over the hiring of every person you work with? Not all of us do.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Do you have absolute control over the hiring of every person you work with? That's...a complete topic switch and irrelevant. The discussion I was responding to is about the challenges facing whoever does have control.
  - dnautics 5y ago
    Well considering I made the initial statement, no, it's not. A company I used to work for once hired exclusively from the must-have-Python-experience pool (not my decision) and the cto fawned over how well he solved this "well-known-leetcode problem", and he utterly failed my problem, which tests for actually useful competency... of course he was hired -- and turned out to be a complete lemon. I remember that hiring round distinctly, everyone we interviewed for that position (n~10) was competent for the leetcode problem but never did basic things in my interview like "write tests", "don't try to make a complicated algorithm", etc, even when told explicitly to do/ not to do those things. Outside of that I interviewed several of my friends (I know them from a non-programming context, so I don't know their competency) who were predominantly python devs, and completely noped out of them for the same reasons (and these were my friends).