4 ms·

You don’t have to use their crap. I don’t. It is chosen by businesses and individuals because it’s about the only complete solution out there (even if it is a

by hvgk 5y ago

You don’t have to use their crap. I don’t. It is chosen by businesses and individuals because it’s about the only complete solution out there (even if it is a monumental shit show) which is cost effective. Either that or they are ignorant or genuinely like it. The EU tech sector needs to build something better. LibreOffice and Linux as it stands is not it. I tried over and over again to use it but it’s just not good. I’m lurking in the leper colony of iCloud, Sheets and Numbers for reference and do most of my stuff on iOS. It’s different but not better.

xxpor 5y ago
It seems like (anecdotally) there's a decent number of shops that are 100% linux for servers, except there will still be an AD + Exchange setup because there's really no comprehensive solution in the open source world, like you said.
- hvgk 5y ago
  That is exactly how my employer works. I use O365 outlook web access begrudgingly.
rolandog 5y ago
> The EU tech sector needs to build something better. LibreOffice and Linux as it stands is not it. I tried over and over again to use it but it’s just not good. Can you elaborate? I have had quite a nice experience on the Linux ecosystem and with LibreOffice too. But there's usually a point where you realize that "this should've been a script" ™. I do concede that Excel pushes that point further down the road with what I remember to be better performance when working with bigger files, but by no means something so drastic.
- atian 5y ago
  > But there's usually a point where you realize that "this should've been a script" ™. There is less accountability for essential business functions that a product provides.
  - hvgk 5y ago
    To be fair Microsoft have no accountability either. But it’s easier to tick the ISO 27001 or SOC compliance box when they pretend they have some accountability.
- hvgk 5y ago
  Well in my case there is always something hideously broken. For example I had a problem a couple of years back where libreoffice would take 3 minutes to open a sheet when my printer was turned on. Then there’s days where if I close the lid on the laptop I had to pray to all the gods of the disc that it’d wake up again without smiting me in some horrible way. And then there’s the usual face punch where I just want to solve a problem, not solve a whole tree of problems. I don’t work on anything exceptional really. It’s all simple stuff. But there’s just so many broken things all the time that I had to walk away. I’m writing this on the only tool I’ve got that doesn’t melt in my hands regularly, an ass end 9th gen ipad paired with a fairly old apple keyboard. It just works. This gives me more time to do things I actually derive value from in my life.
- _dain_ 5y ago
  >Can you elaborate? https://teddit.net/r/linux/comments/hioivn/libreoffice_is_still_garbage/ https://teddit.net/r/linux/comments/hioivn/libreoffice_is_st...
typon 5y ago
I didn't think I (as an experienced software engineer) would struggle so much to save a file until I had to use Office 365. I wish Dropbox was more popular in your average small business office.
- anandrew 5y ago
  Can you elaborate, for those unfamiliar with Office 365?
  - typon 5y ago
    In general it boils down to "the distributed storage is buggy/not performant". The standard experience I want as a user is that my "cloud" files should be treated like my "local" files. However, in practice this is not the case. There are constantly syncing issues, files go missing from device or another, old versions appear/disappear randomly, the syncing server can't connect for a very long time (say upwards of 20+ minutes), etc. etc. And of course as Murphy would have it, this usually happens around the time where you critically need to share files across machines with a client or something. It's just generally a really frustrating experience.
- hvgk 5y ago
  Oh yes that’s a nightmare. They turned saving a file into a kafkaesque dystopian hell hole. This is one of the things I like about Numbers etc on iOS. It abstracts this away so we’ll I don’t have to give a crap and it appears instantly on all my devices.
agust 5y ago
The point is not that the people aware of the situation can avoid using these services, the point is that Microsoft (just like Apple and Google) is abusing its control over the OS to entice millions of people to use their own services. This is not an even market, competition is distorted. How could better competitors emerge in such situation? As if the unlimited fundings these companies have was not enough.
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  Why shouldn't a company promote its own products? It is not "abuse of control", that is such bullshit. Also I have been using Windows for decades and never touched MS Office or Teams. It's not that hard.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    Why shouldn't companies agree to work together for mutual benefit, like tech companies agreeing to hold down wages, like they did recently. Or is that too 'free market'?
    - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
      Fine by me, actually. What exactly is the rationale for making disallowing such a thing? Unions are doing the same thing, btw.
      - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        You seem to be unfamiliar with the absolute basics of cartels, collusion and antitrust law. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust...
        kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
        What is the point of your comment? I am aware that there were agreements between the companies. My question was what is the rationale behind making such a thing illegal. Your link doesn't answer that question.
BlueTemplar 5y ago
I'm holding for now, but the pressure to start using GitHub and LinkedIn keeps growing...

by hvgk 5y ago

xxpor 5y ago

It seems like (anecdotally) there's a decent number of shops that are 100% linux for servers, except there will still be an AD + Exchange setup because there's really no comprehensive solution in the open source world, like you said.

hvgk 5y ago
That is exactly how my employer works. I use O365 outlook web access begrudgingly.

rolandog 5y ago

> The EU tech sector needs to build something better. LibreOffice and Linux as it stands is not it. I tried over and over again to use it but it’s just not good. Can you elaborate? I have had quite a nice experience on the Linux ecosystem and with LibreOffice too. But there's usually a point where you realize that "this should've been a script" ™. I do concede that Excel pushes that point further down the road with what I remember to be better performance when working with bigger files, but by no means something so drastic.

atian 5y ago
> But there's usually a point where you realize that "this should've been a script" ™. There is less accountability for essential business functions that a product provides.
- hvgk 5y ago
  To be fair Microsoft have no accountability either. But it’s easier to tick the ISO 27001 or SOC compliance box when they pretend they have some accountability.
hvgk 5y ago
Well in my case there is always something hideously broken. For example I had a problem a couple of years back where libreoffice would take 3 minutes to open a sheet when my printer was turned on. Then there’s days where if I close the lid on the laptop I had to pray to all the gods of the disc that it’d wake up again without smiting me in some horrible way. And then there’s the usual face punch where I just want to solve a problem, not solve a whole tree of problems. I don’t work on anything exceptional really. It’s all simple stuff. But there’s just so many broken things all the time that I had to walk away. I’m writing this on the only tool I’ve got that doesn’t melt in my hands regularly, an ass end 9th gen ipad paired with a fairly old apple keyboard. It just works. This gives me more time to do things I actually derive value from in my life.
_dain_ 5y ago
>Can you elaborate? https://teddit.net/r/linux/comments/hioivn/libreoffice_is_still_garbage/ https://teddit.net/r/linux/comments/hioivn/libreoffice_is_st...

typon 5y ago

I didn't think I (as an experienced software engineer) would struggle so much to save a file until I had to use Office 365. I wish Dropbox was more popular in your average small business office.

anandrew 5y ago
Can you elaborate, for those unfamiliar with Office 365?
- typon 5y ago
  In general it boils down to "the distributed storage is buggy/not performant". The standard experience I want as a user is that my "cloud" files should be treated like my "local" files. However, in practice this is not the case. There are constantly syncing issues, files go missing from device or another, old versions appear/disappear randomly, the syncing server can't connect for a very long time (say upwards of 20+ minutes), etc. etc. And of course as Murphy would have it, this usually happens around the time where you critically need to share files across machines with a client or something. It's just generally a really frustrating experience.
hvgk 5y ago
Oh yes that’s a nightmare. They turned saving a file into a kafkaesque dystopian hell hole. This is one of the things I like about Numbers etc on iOS. It abstracts this away so we’ll I don’t have to give a crap and it appears instantly on all my devices.

agust 5y ago

The point is not that the people aware of the situation can avoid using these services, the point is that Microsoft (just like Apple and Google) is abusing its control over the OS to entice millions of people to use their own services. This is not an even market, competition is distorted. How could better competitors emerge in such situation? As if the unlimited fundings these companies have was not enough.

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
Why shouldn't a company promote its own products? It is not "abuse of control", that is such bullshit. Also I have been using Windows for decades and never touched MS Office or Teams. It's not that hard.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  Why shouldn't companies agree to work together for mutual benefit, like tech companies agreeing to hold down wages, like they did recently. Or is that too 'free market'?
  - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
    Fine by me, actually. What exactly is the rationale for making disallowing such a thing? Unions are doing the same thing, btw.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      You seem to be unfamiliar with the absolute basics of cartels, collusion and antitrust law. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust...
      - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
        What is the point of your comment? I am aware that there were agreements between the companies. My question was what is the rationale behind making such a thing illegal. Your link doesn't answer that question.

BlueTemplar 5y ago

I'm holding for now, but the pressure to start using GitHub and LinkedIn keeps growing...