6 ms·

Choosing not to be vaccinated is a harm to society. Being vaccinated isn't just about protecting yourself. It is people's choice not to be vaccinated, and they'

by 0xTJ 5y ago

Choosing not to be vaccinated is a harm to society. Being vaccinated isn't just about protecting yourself. It is people's choice not to be vaccinated, and they're responsible for the consequences of that choice, including not being allowed in spaces where they're a hazard to others.

jokethrowaway 5y ago
That's a ridiculous narrative for covid where vaccinated people are marginally less contagious than unvaccinated people. The main benefit of the covid vaccine is reducing symptoms when you get covid and reducing hospitalisations. If you are worried about getting covid, vaccinate yourself. That's it, you don't need anyone else to be vaccinated.
- threeseed 5y ago
  "immunisation with either the Pfizer or AstraZeneca vaccine reduced the chance of onward virus transmission by 40–60%" [1] That is not marginally less and which is why people should be vaccinated. Also unvaccinated people place significant strain on the hospital system preventing elective surgery and increasing my costs as a taxpayer. [1] https://khub.net/documents/135939561/390853656/Impact+of+vaccination+on+household+transmission+of+SARS-COV-2+in+England.pdf/35bf4bb1-6ade-d3eb-a39e-9c9b25a8122a?t=1619601878136 https://khub.net/documents/135939561/390853656/Impact+of+vac...
  - _dain_ 5y ago
    > "immunisation with either the Pfizer or AstraZeneca vaccine reduced the chance of onward virus transmission by 40–60%" [1] so why are there still soaring case rates in the countries with the most vaccines? I'll trust my lying eyes, thank you. it's honestly insulting that you can post some pissant "study" like this and expect to be taken seriously when anyone can just look at the case rates and vax rates by country and see that it's obviously wrong.
    - threeseed 5y ago
      a) There are still soaring case rates because vaccination rates are not 100% and you have waning immunity. People who are dying are the ones who are unvaccinated. But you will still get breakthrough cases which nobody has ever denied will happen. b) If you some independent study which proves your statement that vaccines only "marginally" affect transmission then please post it.
      - _dain_ 5y ago
        https://eugyppius.substack.com/p/ukhsa-vaccine-surveillance-week-46 https://eugyppius.substack.com/p/ukhsa-vaccine-surveillance-... case rates are as high or higher among the vaxxed in every age group that matters. as for 100% vaxx rates as our way into the promised land: a) lmao and b) this is unfalsifiable. we could get up to 99.9% vaxx rates and corona fanatics like you would still say it's the intransigent 0.01% holdout are keeping us from crossing the finish line. you are just like every other ideological zealot who dismisses the empirical failures of their ideas (nazism, communism, etc) by saying all those real life examples weren't really the True Ism, and that we would have immanentized the eschaton already if not for all those pesky people with their free will. not to mention there are stable wild animal reservoirs of the virus and those are never going away. again, you haven't made any coherent argument as to why I can't just look at the case rates by country and compare them to vaxx rates and draw the obvious conclusion. am I not allowed to say the sky is blue without a peer reviewed study?
    - wott 5y ago
      > so why are there still soaring case rates in the countries with the most vaccines? Vaccinated people are not submitted to the same constraints (such as mandatory tests for accessing this and that) so carry the virus in more places favourable for transmission. They also don't worry as much about getting the virus (at the same time rightfully so and not rightfully so), so they give up on taking the precautions they took the previous year, and they also do not take a test when symptoms arise but remain light. All this unfortunately compensate for the fact that, individually, they are less subjected to spreading the virus. Over here, when a vaccinated person tests positive, their pass is not even revoked :-/ Also, in order to promote vaccination, tests which were free have been made paying for non-vaccinated people; so as a perverse result, non-vaccinated people now test less, thus spread more too. Basically, the current attitude (both individual and official) seem to imply that it does not matter any more to care about spreading the virus, so long as you are relatively/fairly protected against the consequences. I don't think this is going to turn well, but...
- barbazoo 5y ago
  > That's a ridiculous narrative for covid where vaccinated people are marginally less contagious than unvaccinated people. Almost two years in and people still don't understand that there is a difference in severity of an infection. When vaccinated, you are much less likely to develop severe symptoms and very unlikely to have to get hospitalized.
  - spurgu 5y ago
    I don't know what you're after but that's literally what the sentence after the one you're quoting is saying.
    - barbazoo 5y ago
      Not after anything. I think I just stopped reading before that.
- Jenda_ 5y ago
  > If you are worried about getting covid, vaccinate yourself. That's it, you don't need anyone else to be vaccinated. What if I'm worried about healthcare system collapse by surge of unvaccinated people, resulting in disruption of non-covid-related medical care? This disruption can even last after the epidemic ends, as the medical staff is burning out and quitting. (this is happening right now in .cz)
  - jokethrowaway 5y ago
    Privatise the health system so that it can be more flexible and provide treatments in a more elastic manner (not necessarily in big expensive hospitals). Deregulate until things are sane if you live in the USA were the government and insurance companies propped up the prices ridiculously. I'm sure that if you prevent non-vaccinated people not to go to public hospital, they will gladly comply. But I don't think covid is a battle we will win with vaccines, the virus mutates fast and the effectiveness drops pretty fast. As of the latest figures I'm reading in the newspapers, 40% of people in ICU because of Covid are vaccinated, 60% are not. Hopefully some medication will come up to cure the symptoms, like remdesivir.
_dain_ 5y ago
No, stripping unvaccinated people of their fundamental freedoms (as happened in countries like Lithuania and Austria) is a harm to society. More than harm, it's a complete disintegration.
- pawelmurias 5y ago
  How is locking down only the anti-vax retards any worse then locking down everyone?
  - _dain_ 5y ago
    "how is shooting one person worse than shooting two people?" how about we don't shoot anyone.
    - bonzini 5y ago
      If you have the magic recipe for curing everyone that gets sick, I am all for it. Because metaphorically "not shooting anyone" does not equate to not having a lockdown, if that results in hundreds of literal deaths every day.
      - _dain_ 5y ago
        hundreds! my god there isn't a jak soy enough for you
  - coolso 5y ago
    Because first we were told "two weeks to flatten the curve and slow the spread". We were also told we didn't really need masks. Then we were told, as late as last October by CNN, and even later by the new guy himself, we should be scared of the new vaccine, because it was released super fast, and endorsed by the last guy. Then the new guy came in and even though he had nothing to do with it, suddenly, in the blink of an eye, the vaccine was super awesome, a heaven-sent miracle cure. 99%+ effectiveness! Take it now, you anti-vaxxer! Wait, you're scared? Low-IQ retard, forget about the FUD we spread before the election, we were just kidding. ;-) And besides, well, the vaccine is so awesome that even though I got this awesome injection, I'm still afraid of getting COVID, so you still need to get it, even though it's super effective, and I'm going to treat you like dirt until you get this vaccine. Which will totally eliminate COVID, we promise. Because I have total faith in this vaccine I want to force you to get because I don't want to interact with unvaccinated people because I might get COVID and get sick despite this amazing vaccine, because I've never gotten sick before COVID. So then we were told we needed no more masks. Which it turns out, caused even more of a spread (but it's okay, because new guy), because guess what, the vaccinated spread almost as easily as the unvaccinated. So now you need to show your vax card to get into places, because the vaccinated can't spread COVID... oh wait. Then we find out the vaccine dips hard, real hard, in effectiveness after a few months. Oops. But now you still need to get it or you're fired. Show your papers, comrade. Why didn't you get your 12th booster yet, fellow citizen? See what I'm getting at? Basically, we're tired of listening to you, and we're not going to anymore. What will time prove you wrong about next? My guess: we're going to find out for certain that COVID will never go away, and is here to stay forever, just like the flu.
damethos 5y ago
You do realize that vaccinated people catch and spread it so what you are saying is simply ignorant. Turn off the TV and do some research on your own. * https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264262v2 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264262v... * https://lc.org/newsroom/details/110121-lancet-study-finds-covid-shots-do-not-prevent-transmission https://lc.org/newsroom/details/110121-lancet-study-finds-co... * https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated-guidance.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vac... ("Fully vaccinated people who do become infected can transmit it to others.") * https://www.bbc.com/news/health-59077036 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-59077036 * https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/covid-vaccinated-likely-unjabbed-infect-cohabiters-study-suggests https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/covid-vaccinat... * https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1

by 0xTJ 5y ago

jokethrowaway 5y ago

That's a ridiculous narrative for covid where vaccinated people are marginally less contagious than unvaccinated people. The main benefit of the covid vaccine is reducing symptoms when you get covid and reducing hospitalisations. If you are worried about getting covid, vaccinate yourself. That's it, you don't need anyone else to be vaccinated.

threeseed 5y ago
"immunisation with either the Pfizer or AstraZeneca vaccine reduced the chance of onward virus transmission by 40–60%" [1] That is not marginally less and which is why people should be vaccinated. Also unvaccinated people place significant strain on the hospital system preventing elective surgery and increasing my costs as a taxpayer. [1] https://khub.net/documents/135939561/390853656/Impact+of+vaccination+on+household+transmission+of+SARS-COV-2+in+England.pdf/35bf4bb1-6ade-d3eb-a39e-9c9b25a8122a?t=1619601878136 https://khub.net/documents/135939561/390853656/Impact+of+vac...
- _dain_ 5y ago
  > "immunisation with either the Pfizer or AstraZeneca vaccine reduced the chance of onward virus transmission by 40–60%" [1] so why are there still soaring case rates in the countries with the most vaccines? I'll trust my lying eyes, thank you. it's honestly insulting that you can post some pissant "study" like this and expect to be taken seriously when anyone can just look at the case rates and vax rates by country and see that it's obviously wrong.
  - threeseed 5y ago
    a) There are still soaring case rates because vaccination rates are not 100% and you have waning immunity. People who are dying are the ones who are unvaccinated. But you will still get breakthrough cases which nobody has ever denied will happen. b) If you some independent study which proves your statement that vaccines only "marginally" affect transmission then please post it.
    - _dain_ 5y ago
      https://eugyppius.substack.com/p/ukhsa-vaccine-surveillance-week-46 https://eugyppius.substack.com/p/ukhsa-vaccine-surveillance-... case rates are as high or higher among the vaxxed in every age group that matters. as for 100% vaxx rates as our way into the promised land: a) lmao and b) this is unfalsifiable. we could get up to 99.9% vaxx rates and corona fanatics like you would still say it's the intransigent 0.01% holdout are keeping us from crossing the finish line. you are just like every other ideological zealot who dismisses the empirical failures of their ideas (nazism, communism, etc) by saying all those real life examples weren't really the True Ism, and that we would have immanentized the eschaton already if not for all those pesky people with their free will. not to mention there are stable wild animal reservoirs of the virus and those are never going away. again, you haven't made any coherent argument as to why I can't just look at the case rates by country and compare them to vaxx rates and draw the obvious conclusion. am I not allowed to say the sky is blue without a peer reviewed study?
  - wott 5y ago
    > so why are there still soaring case rates in the countries with the most vaccines? Vaccinated people are not submitted to the same constraints (such as mandatory tests for accessing this and that) so carry the virus in more places favourable for transmission. They also don't worry as much about getting the virus (at the same time rightfully so and not rightfully so), so they give up on taking the precautions they took the previous year, and they also do not take a test when symptoms arise but remain light. All this unfortunately compensate for the fact that, individually, they are less subjected to spreading the virus. Over here, when a vaccinated person tests positive, their pass is not even revoked :-/ Also, in order to promote vaccination, tests which were free have been made paying for non-vaccinated people; so as a perverse result, non-vaccinated people now test less, thus spread more too. Basically, the current attitude (both individual and official) seem to imply that it does not matter any more to care about spreading the virus, so long as you are relatively/fairly protected against the consequences. I don't think this is going to turn well, but...
barbazoo 5y ago
> That's a ridiculous narrative for covid where vaccinated people are marginally less contagious than unvaccinated people. Almost two years in and people still don't understand that there is a difference in severity of an infection. When vaccinated, you are much less likely to develop severe symptoms and very unlikely to have to get hospitalized.
- spurgu 5y ago
  I don't know what you're after but that's literally what the sentence after the one you're quoting is saying.
  - barbazoo 5y ago
    Not after anything. I think I just stopped reading before that.
Jenda_ 5y ago
> If you are worried about getting covid, vaccinate yourself. That's it, you don't need anyone else to be vaccinated. What if I'm worried about healthcare system collapse by surge of unvaccinated people, resulting in disruption of non-covid-related medical care? This disruption can even last after the epidemic ends, as the medical staff is burning out and quitting. (this is happening right now in .cz)
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  Privatise the health system so that it can be more flexible and provide treatments in a more elastic manner (not necessarily in big expensive hospitals). Deregulate until things are sane if you live in the USA were the government and insurance companies propped up the prices ridiculously. I'm sure that if you prevent non-vaccinated people not to go to public hospital, they will gladly comply. But I don't think covid is a battle we will win with vaccines, the virus mutates fast and the effectiveness drops pretty fast. As of the latest figures I'm reading in the newspapers, 40% of people in ICU because of Covid are vaccinated, 60% are not. Hopefully some medication will come up to cure the symptoms, like remdesivir.

_dain_ 5y ago

No, stripping unvaccinated people of their fundamental freedoms (as happened in countries like Lithuania and Austria) is a harm to society. More than harm, it's a complete disintegration.

pawelmurias 5y ago
How is locking down only the anti-vax retards any worse then locking down everyone?
- _dain_ 5y ago
  "how is shooting one person worse than shooting two people?" how about we don't shoot anyone.
  - bonzini 5y ago
    If you have the magic recipe for curing everyone that gets sick, I am all for it. Because metaphorically "not shooting anyone" does not equate to not having a lockdown, if that results in hundreds of literal deaths every day.
    - _dain_ 5y ago
      hundreds! my god there isn't a jak soy enough for you
- coolso 5y ago
  Because first we were told "two weeks to flatten the curve and slow the spread". We were also told we didn't really need masks. Then we were told, as late as last October by CNN, and even later by the new guy himself, we should be scared of the new vaccine, because it was released super fast, and endorsed by the last guy. Then the new guy came in and even though he had nothing to do with it, suddenly, in the blink of an eye, the vaccine was super awesome, a heaven-sent miracle cure. 99%+ effectiveness! Take it now, you anti-vaxxer! Wait, you're scared? Low-IQ retard, forget about the FUD we spread before the election, we were just kidding. ;-) And besides, well, the vaccine is so awesome that even though I got this awesome injection, I'm still afraid of getting COVID, so you still need to get it, even though it's super effective, and I'm going to treat you like dirt until you get this vaccine. Which will totally eliminate COVID, we promise. Because I have total faith in this vaccine I want to force you to get because I don't want to interact with unvaccinated people because I might get COVID and get sick despite this amazing vaccine, because I've never gotten sick before COVID. So then we were told we needed no more masks. Which it turns out, caused even more of a spread (but it's okay, because new guy), because guess what, the vaccinated spread almost as easily as the unvaccinated. So now you need to show your vax card to get into places, because the vaccinated can't spread COVID... oh wait. Then we find out the vaccine dips hard, real hard, in effectiveness after a few months. Oops. But now you still need to get it or you're fired. Show your papers, comrade. Why didn't you get your 12th booster yet, fellow citizen? See what I'm getting at? Basically, we're tired of listening to you, and we're not going to anymore. What will time prove you wrong about next? My guess: we're going to find out for certain that COVID will never go away, and is here to stay forever, just like the flu.

damethos 5y ago

You do realize that vaccinated people catch and spread it so what you are saying is simply ignorant. Turn off the TV and do some research on your own. * https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264262v2 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264262v... * https://lc.org/newsroom/details/110121-lancet-study-finds-covid-shots-do-not-prevent-transmission https://lc.org/newsroom/details/110121-lancet-study-finds-co... * https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated-guidance.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vac... ("Fully vaccinated people who do become infected can transmit it to others.") * https://www.bbc.com/news/health-59077036 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-59077036 * https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/covid-vaccinated-likely-unjabbed-infect-cohabiters-study-suggests https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/covid-vaccinat... * https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1