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Not every person or every culture has the same sets of values around gambling. Not every ethical philosophy thinks of gambling the same way. In many developed c

Not every person or every culture has the same sets of values around gambling. Not every ethical philosophy thinks of gambling the same way. In many developed countries gambling is legal and regulated in many forms. Governments around the world spend a lot of energy deciding what the lines for regulating gambling is. When I see ethical takes like this, I feel like I'm missing a _lot_ of context. The Islamic world for example sees consumption of alcohol as a sin. Is this a Christian ethical take? What's the difference between markets and gambling in this ethical philosophy? Islamic states see any form of interest as sin after all.

stavros 5y ago
You can think that gambling is moral. You can think that gambling is immoral. To think that gambling is immoral unless it's earning a lot of money is... something.
- Karrot_Kream 5y ago
  I mean sure but that's not what GP is saying. GP is purely laying into gambling by itself. > I have nothing but disgust for these types of games, even without the block chain veneer That's where my question arises.
  - stavros 5y ago
    Are you talking about reggieband or igorkraw? I was referring to the former.
    - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
      Igorkraw
  - igorkraw 5y ago
    I'm specifically laying into people getting rich off of other people gambling and making a business out of it. If a group of friends wants to play poker, or if the Axie platform was a co-op owned by all of the players (and no 20% dev stake like most premined cryptocurrencies) I'd say "eh, it's their choice". But making money off of hooking into and pushing our vices is something I personally disagree with.
    - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
      Sure but what about the folks that run casinos, pachinko parlors, mahjongg dens, card clubs, horse race betting owners, claw machine owners, etc, etc. There's a _lot_ of gambling around the world and it's the owners' job to market these gambling houses. Why are these crypto scams so deleterious when there's probably an order of magnitude more people gambling their money away in more traditional gambling houses designed to keep you inside, fed, and spending money for as long as possible? Is your position that all gambling like this should be run by the state?
      - igorkraw 5y ago
        By the state or by private individuals without profiting and without advertising. I'm also in support of banning loot boxes in commercial games like we've seen in some European countries. Again, the problem isn't gambling. The problem is people making money off of pushing people to gamble more than they'd do naturally.
igorkraw 5y ago
Answering directly to your questions, I don't have any religious background on this, I just see hijacking of our primitive vices for personal profit as immoral and shun-worthy. I think prohibition is bad (just creates Shadow markets) and the main thing to stop is running profitable gambling houses and advertising/incitement - if nobody could make a profit off of it, people would still gamble, but at least it would be intrinsically motivated and you don't get the consolidating and exploitative effects that arise from privatised gambling. Same with all other "sins" - don't stop the sin, stop the profiteering and the exploitation. The sins are fine and fun
- zenplant 5y ago
  Hijacking of our primitive vices, isn't that the basis for most economic activity? The food industry, television/movie industry, all of social media including the site we're on right now, the list goes on indefinitely. Normal video games without a crypto element do this as well. I currently have real money tokens in at least 4 of the most popular games, none of which I can ever get anything back from except in game cosmetics. But even games like Stardew Valley that wouldn't dream of taking extra money from you are tapping into our vice centers to keep us playing. As someone deep into video games to me this is just an evolution of world of warcraft gold, or what steam has going on with their in game items and trading cards. I can exchange wow gold/steam items for real money, which blizzard or valve takes a generous % of. I can then only use that money to buy blizzard/steam products from their respective stores. People grind for countless hours in games even for these relatively worthless (when compared to crypto/nfts) currencies. Hell people spend countless hours grinding for in game currencies that will never have any real world value at all. Mostly because it can be wildly fun to do. I feel like a whole lot of the hatred towards the crypto space will go down in history as an old man yells at cloud moment.
  - igorkraw 5y ago
    Well, yes,you have rediscovered a core theme of criticism against the capitalist, consumerist mode of production anarchists and other leftists tend to raise, together with commodification. There is a coherent view that most AAA video games are skinner boxes aimed at extracting cash and Indie Games being closer to the "original" idea of them, and there are real discussions to be had about grinding on that context as a worthwhile escapism vs. a symptom of a bigger problem vs. a tool to build emotional investment that will keep you subscribing. Don't get me wrong, I'm the old man yelling at the crypto cloud as well, but in this case I'm the old man yelling at business foundations of questionable morality. Providing healthy food, fodder for emotional and personal comfort and growth or shelter has very different business models and foundations from providing fast food/sweets, skinner Box Dopamine drips or artificially hyped status Symbols.

stavros 5y ago

You can think that gambling is moral. You can think that gambling is immoral. To think that gambling is immoral unless it's earning a lot of money is... something.

Karrot_Kream 5y ago
I mean sure but that's not what GP is saying. GP is purely laying into gambling by itself. > I have nothing but disgust for these types of games, even without the block chain veneer That's where my question arises.
- stavros 5y ago
  Are you talking about reggieband or igorkraw? I was referring to the former.
  - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
    Igorkraw
- igorkraw 5y ago
  I'm specifically laying into people getting rich off of other people gambling and making a business out of it. If a group of friends wants to play poker, or if the Axie platform was a co-op owned by all of the players (and no 20% dev stake like most premined cryptocurrencies) I'd say "eh, it's their choice". But making money off of hooking into and pushing our vices is something I personally disagree with.
  - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
    Sure but what about the folks that run casinos, pachinko parlors, mahjongg dens, card clubs, horse race betting owners, claw machine owners, etc, etc. There's a _lot_ of gambling around the world and it's the owners' job to market these gambling houses. Why are these crypto scams so deleterious when there's probably an order of magnitude more people gambling their money away in more traditional gambling houses designed to keep you inside, fed, and spending money for as long as possible? Is your position that all gambling like this should be run by the state?
    - igorkraw 5y ago
      By the state or by private individuals without profiting and without advertising. I'm also in support of banning loot boxes in commercial games like we've seen in some European countries. Again, the problem isn't gambling. The problem is people making money off of pushing people to gamble more than they'd do naturally.

igorkraw 5y ago

Answering directly to your questions, I don't have any religious background on this, I just see hijacking of our primitive vices for personal profit as immoral and shun-worthy. I think prohibition is bad (just creates Shadow markets) and the main thing to stop is running profitable gambling houses and advertising/incitement - if nobody could make a profit off of it, people would still gamble, but at least it would be intrinsically motivated and you don't get the consolidating and exploitative effects that arise from privatised gambling. Same with all other "sins" - don't stop the sin, stop the profiteering and the exploitation. The sins are fine and fun

zenplant 5y ago
Hijacking of our primitive vices, isn't that the basis for most economic activity? The food industry, television/movie industry, all of social media including the site we're on right now, the list goes on indefinitely. Normal video games without a crypto element do this as well. I currently have real money tokens in at least 4 of the most popular games, none of which I can ever get anything back from except in game cosmetics. But even games like Stardew Valley that wouldn't dream of taking extra money from you are tapping into our vice centers to keep us playing. As someone deep into video games to me this is just an evolution of world of warcraft gold, or what steam has going on with their in game items and trading cards. I can exchange wow gold/steam items for real money, which blizzard or valve takes a generous % of. I can then only use that money to buy blizzard/steam products from their respective stores. People grind for countless hours in games even for these relatively worthless (when compared to crypto/nfts) currencies. Hell people spend countless hours grinding for in game currencies that will never have any real world value at all. Mostly because it can be wildly fun to do. I feel like a whole lot of the hatred towards the crypto space will go down in history as an old man yells at cloud moment.
- igorkraw 5y ago
  Well, yes,you have rediscovered a core theme of criticism against the capitalist, consumerist mode of production anarchists and other leftists tend to raise, together with commodification. There is a coherent view that most AAA video games are skinner boxes aimed at extracting cash and Indie Games being closer to the "original" idea of them, and there are real discussions to be had about grinding on that context as a worthwhile escapism vs. a symptom of a bigger problem vs. a tool to build emotional investment that will keep you subscribing. Don't get me wrong, I'm the old man yelling at the crypto cloud as well, but in this case I'm the old man yelling at business foundations of questionable morality. Providing healthy food, fodder for emotional and personal comfort and growth or shelter has very different business models and foundations from providing fast food/sweets, skinner Box Dopamine drips or artificially hyped status Symbols.