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> It's possible to farm animals ethically. I believe that most artificial meat consumers would argue that it's impossible to kill and eat animals ethically. Af

> It's possible to farm animals ethically. I believe that most artificial meat consumers would argue that it's impossible to kill and eat animals ethically. After all that's why they choose to eat the more expensive artificial meat instead of the real deal or no meat at all.

wumpus 5y ago
If you talk to actual vegetarians and vegans, you'll find that there are more reasons than just ethics. It's a very diverse group of people.
sjwalter 5y ago
How many animals does a 30 acre soy field kill? Have you ever seen how many foals are chewed up in a combine? IMO much more ethical to directly kill an animal vs. indirectly destroy its habitat or kill it accidentally (and then fail to use the carcass).
- UglyToad 5y ago
  Oh in that case we better stop... uh.. eating animals since that drives demand for 77% of Soy consumption [0]. I know we must engage in good faith but the soy scaremongering sure does seem coordinated. [0] https://ourworldindata.org/soy https://ourworldindata.org/soy
  - phonypc 5y ago
    I don't think it follows that because the largest fraction of soy consumption is as animal feed, that animal agriculture drives soy consumption. Soy animal feed is mostly a byproduct of soy oil and biofuel production. If not for that production, we'd just move to the next cheapest feed.
- tfehring 5y ago
  The amount of feed crop acreage needed to produce a beef burger is much greater than the crop acreage needed to produce an Impossible burger, so the Impossible burger reduces the number of those habitats that are being destroyed. (I'm using "feed crop" loosely to include hay - even 100% grass-fed cattle can't just be pastured year-round in most areas, and cutting hay is just as bad as harvesting feed crops for any smaller animals that've made their homes in the fields.)
- quesera 5y ago
  > Have you ever seen how many foals are chewed up in a combine? I'm going with zero. Where do you live that stray horses or donkeys are roaming into crop fields at harvest time?
  - klyrs 5y ago
    Foals is probably a red herring. But what do farmers do about gophers, deer and wild pigs?
    - quesera 5y ago
      The bigger ones run away. Combines are enormous and noisy. They don't sneak up on you. But I think intent makes a difference. Mice killed by farm equipment are accidental side effects with some ethical implications which most of us choose ignore. Livestock raised for slaughter is a different ethical question entirely. (Meat eater here. I do find it to be the natural order of things, but I am aware that I could justify slavery and sexual exploitation by the same logic, and that makes me pretty sure I'm giving myself a pass on the meat thing.)
      - klyrs 5y ago
        Yeah, I'm with ya on the combine. But, farmers shoot or exterminate animals like deer, gophers and pigs that threaten their crops. It seems as though it's necessary to kill animals in order to provide even a vegan diet to the world's population, and I often see this truth being ignored by absolutists -- which seems to be what the original comment about combines was reaching for. I eat meat, too. I'm... mostly okay with that. But I'm told that pigs are smarter than cats, and that makes me a bit squeamish. Natural order sure is a slippery slope. It is human nature, I hope, to aim to be better than our nature.
        quesera 5y ago
        > It is human nature, I hope, to aim to be better than our nature. Thank goodness for that!
jakear 5y ago
Artificial meat consumer here, I’d argue a slight modification to that: it’s impossible to kill and eat animals ethically, if you cannot verify the animal was treated ethically while it lived. For the vast majority of supermarket/restaurant food such verification is impossible, and in these cases I opt for the pseudo stuff (or just plain vegetarian). However, when buying directly from small family farms it is actually quite easy and I have no hesitations about consuming their animalian products.
- Toutouxc 5y ago
  Don't you think that killing an animal is unethical no matter how nicely it used to be treated? I'm currently trying to keep my meat consumption as low as possible, but I still eat some and I don't think it's very ethical of me. I'm the higher life form and cows can't really do anything about it, and most people won't hold it against me, but I don't think there's anything ethical about it.
  - jakear 5y ago
    I believe that as conscious entities we have the power to choose the ethical “axioms” we use to guide our decisions. Under the axioms I’ve chosen I can “prove” (in a surprisingly formal sense) the claim “it is ethically okay to consume animals that have been treated humanely”. That being said, it would only take a slight modification to one of my axioms to successfully argue the opposite. I’d be very interested to hear how you use your axioms to argue the opposite. I’m happy to share mine but don’t want to taint your thought process before you’ve had time to fully consider the problem.

wumpus 5y ago

If you talk to actual vegetarians and vegans, you'll find that there are more reasons than just ethics. It's a very diverse group of people.

sjwalter 5y ago

How many animals does a 30 acre soy field kill? Have you ever seen how many foals are chewed up in a combine? IMO much more ethical to directly kill an animal vs. indirectly destroy its habitat or kill it accidentally (and then fail to use the carcass).

UglyToad 5y ago
Oh in that case we better stop... uh.. eating animals since that drives demand for 77% of Soy consumption [0]. I know we must engage in good faith but the soy scaremongering sure does seem coordinated. [0] https://ourworldindata.org/soy https://ourworldindata.org/soy
- phonypc 5y ago
  I don't think it follows that because the largest fraction of soy consumption is as animal feed, that animal agriculture drives soy consumption. Soy animal feed is mostly a byproduct of soy oil and biofuel production. If not for that production, we'd just move to the next cheapest feed.
tfehring 5y ago
The amount of feed crop acreage needed to produce a beef burger is much greater than the crop acreage needed to produce an Impossible burger, so the Impossible burger reduces the number of those habitats that are being destroyed. (I'm using "feed crop" loosely to include hay - even 100% grass-fed cattle can't just be pastured year-round in most areas, and cutting hay is just as bad as harvesting feed crops for any smaller animals that've made their homes in the fields.)
quesera 5y ago
> Have you ever seen how many foals are chewed up in a combine? I'm going with zero. Where do you live that stray horses or donkeys are roaming into crop fields at harvest time?
- klyrs 5y ago
  Foals is probably a red herring. But what do farmers do about gophers, deer and wild pigs?
  - quesera 5y ago
    The bigger ones run away. Combines are enormous and noisy. They don't sneak up on you. But I think intent makes a difference. Mice killed by farm equipment are accidental side effects with some ethical implications which most of us choose ignore. Livestock raised for slaughter is a different ethical question entirely. (Meat eater here. I do find it to be the natural order of things, but I am aware that I could justify slavery and sexual exploitation by the same logic, and that makes me pretty sure I'm giving myself a pass on the meat thing.)
    - klyrs 5y ago
      Yeah, I'm with ya on the combine. But, farmers shoot or exterminate animals like deer, gophers and pigs that threaten their crops. It seems as though it's necessary to kill animals in order to provide even a vegan diet to the world's population, and I often see this truth being ignored by absolutists -- which seems to be what the original comment about combines was reaching for. I eat meat, too. I'm... mostly okay with that. But I'm told that pigs are smarter than cats, and that makes me a bit squeamish. Natural order sure is a slippery slope. It is human nature, I hope, to aim to be better than our nature.
      - quesera 5y ago
        > It is human nature, I hope, to aim to be better than our nature. Thank goodness for that!

jakear 5y ago

Artificial meat consumer here, I’d argue a slight modification to that: it’s impossible to kill and eat animals ethically, if you cannot verify the animal was treated ethically while it lived. For the vast majority of supermarket/restaurant food such verification is impossible, and in these cases I opt for the pseudo stuff (or just plain vegetarian). However, when buying directly from small family farms it is actually quite easy and I have no hesitations about consuming their animalian products.

Toutouxc 5y ago
Don't you think that killing an animal is unethical no matter how nicely it used to be treated? I'm currently trying to keep my meat consumption as low as possible, but I still eat some and I don't think it's very ethical of me. I'm the higher life form and cows can't really do anything about it, and most people won't hold it against me, but I don't think there's anything ethical about it.
- jakear 5y ago
  I believe that as conscious entities we have the power to choose the ethical “axioms” we use to guide our decisions. Under the axioms I’ve chosen I can “prove” (in a surprisingly formal sense) the claim “it is ethically okay to consume animals that have been treated humanely”. That being said, it would only take a slight modification to one of my axioms to successfully argue the opposite. I’d be very interested to hear how you use your axioms to argue the opposite. I’m happy to share mine but don’t want to taint your thought process before you’ve had time to fully consider the problem.