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You're talking systems, I asked about philosophy. It's easy to agree that the Prussian state educational philosophy was focused on building good citizens for a

You're talking systems, I asked about philosophy. It's easy to agree that the Prussian state educational philosophy was focused on building good citizens for a nation state embroiled in near continuous war, or threatened by hovering on the horizon storm clouds of the next war. But you can use a Prussian system to deliver results according to American ideals - the Prussian system doesn't necessitate Prussian ideals. It's like how you can do Kanban, without building cars in a very homogeneous society.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> It's easy to agree that the Prussian state educational philosophy was focused on building good citizens for a nation state embroiled in near continuous war, or threatened by hovering on the horizon storm clouds of the next war. Well, yes, since it is factually true. > But you can use a Prussian system to deliver results according to American ideals Well, yes, since actual American educational ideals, especially of the ruling class, involve a very similar concept of a “good citizen” to that of the Prussian model, and not even Prussia of the time the model was invented was as continuously engaged in war for as long as the US has been.
BlueTemplar 5y ago
Well, up to some point. If the Prussian system was so wildly successful in the West it was because it fit so well the new concept of Nation-States and the new technic of the printing press. I see this article as symptomatic of the situation having radically changed between wars now being unthinkable between nuclear-armed powers (and their close allies), and more recently the rise of the the World Wide Web. I would, however, not be so dismissive of Nation-States and the need of citizen endoctrination as the author is : you can easily end up with something way worse, like an Empire or tribal chaos ! (But then the author seems to be focused on the USA, which has always been a weird blend of Nation and Empire...)
throwaway2331 5y ago
In the case of philosophy, any semblance of it in the systems we're talking about is strictly post hoc: there was no "philosophy" involved -- only politics and the egos of those involved (see: Frederick William III). The primary catalyst for "Prussian Schooling Reforms" was Frederick William III's defeat to Napoleon at Jena, and all that ensued after. Prussia's new "soldier unit" schooling system was a reaction to this. It is inseparable from "Prussian ideals" (or more accurately, ends and means that are strictly "Prussian"). The ends involved with the "Prussian Schooling Reforms" were to create an underclass of citizens that could be used to fulfill the state's ends. The corresponding means was the schooling system. In the case of the U.S., the ends were to enrich its proponents, and give them a bigger "power base." The "adoption" of the "Prussian Schooling System" was the means to this end. The ends are very similar, and of a similar "family." This is a messy conversation, only because the idea of "ideals" and "philosophy" are always post hoc. Rarely does any public policy anywhere stem from "ideals" or "philosophy" -- those are always selling points, and even red herrings, to rally others under a single banner to reach a certain end.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> It's easy to agree that the Prussian state educational philosophy was focused on building good citizens for a nation state embroiled in near continuous war, or threatened by hovering on the horizon storm clouds of the next war. Well, yes, since it is factually true. > But you can use a Prussian system to deliver results according to American ideals Well, yes, since actual American educational ideals, especially of the ruling class, involve a very similar concept of a “good citizen” to that of the Prussian model, and not even Prussia of the time the model was invented was as continuously engaged in war for as long as the US has been.

BlueTemplar 5y ago

Well, up to some point. If the Prussian system was so wildly successful in the West it was because it fit so well the new concept of Nation-States and the new technic of the printing press. I see this article as symptomatic of the situation having radically changed between wars now being unthinkable between nuclear-armed powers (and their close allies), and more recently the rise of the the World Wide Web. I would, however, not be so dismissive of Nation-States and the need of citizen endoctrination as the author is : you can easily end up with something way worse, like an Empire or tribal chaos ! (But then the author seems to be focused on the USA, which has always been a weird blend of Nation and Empire...)

throwaway2331 5y ago

In the case of philosophy, any semblance of it in the systems we're talking about is strictly post hoc: there was no "philosophy" involved -- only politics and the egos of those involved (see: Frederick William III). The primary catalyst for "Prussian Schooling Reforms" was Frederick William III's defeat to Napoleon at Jena, and all that ensued after. Prussia's new "soldier unit" schooling system was a reaction to this. It is inseparable from "Prussian ideals" (or more accurately, ends and means that are strictly "Prussian"). The ends involved with the "Prussian Schooling Reforms" were to create an underclass of citizens that could be used to fulfill the state's ends. The corresponding means was the schooling system. In the case of the U.S., the ends were to enrich its proponents, and give them a bigger "power base." The "adoption" of the "Prussian Schooling System" was the means to this end. The ends are very similar, and of a similar "family." This is a messy conversation, only because the idea of "ideals" and "philosophy" are always post hoc. Rarely does any public policy anywhere stem from "ideals" or "philosophy" -- those are always selling points, and even red herrings, to rally others under a single banner to reach a certain end.