5 ms·

I find the whole covid thing a nightmare. I got vaccinated (2 shots) in Argentina, and since Argentina doesn't have the concept of vaccine proof, as far as EU i

I find the whole covid thing a nightmare. I got vaccinated (2 shots) in Argentina, and since Argentina doesn't have the concept of vaccine proof, as far as EU is concerned, I'm unvaccinated. So when I go to EU I can't do half the things there like going to pubs or restaurants, or in some cases even public transport, and have to get vaccinated twice. Not sure how healthy that would be, and no idea why this is (seemingly) something people are okay with.

whalesalad 5y ago
Fear has overridden the rational mind of many people in the current period.
- ASalazarMX 5y ago
  In both directions. Some take extreme precautions because of fear, others take extreme risks because of fear.
meheleventyone 5y ago
I wondered how true this was, but Argentina seems to have digital proof of vaccination: https://www.argentina.gob.ar/miargentina/servicios/vaccine_covid https://www.argentina.gob.ar/miargentina/servicios/vaccine_c... Or are you saying that the EU won't accept this as proof of vaccination?
- askonomm 5y ago
  First of the digital certificate is a joke, since it can't actually be obtained via the Mi Argentina app, where it fails to show up. When contacting the government, they will tell you that they are working on that (?). But what I meant was proof for a foreign country, yes, that is meant for when traveling. So not only does most of EU not accept Sinopharm vaccines, which is what I got here (there was no ability to choose), but I also don't have proof that works outside of Argentina (and, well, not even IN Argentina).
  - meheleventyone 5y ago
    That definitely sounds like a total pain. I presume it's resolvable if you can get vaccinated where you are now and make sure with a doctor you've had a suitable delay between the shots (as with booster shots).
- mrtksn 5y ago
  EU Green Pass system includes all EU countries and some non-eu countries listed here and Argentina is not in the list at the moment: https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/coronavirus-response/safe-covid-19-vaccines-europeans/eu-digital-covid-certificate_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/coronavirus-re... I believe, countries that want their certificate be accepted by EU need to macth the EU requirements and formats. For example, Turkey is in the list and the Turkish vaccine certificate system will generate a QR code upon your request that is valid in the EU.
  - tyre 5y ago
    I was in France in August. We had our American vax paper pass. Most of the time it was accepted without anything. Only once did we have to talk with a government official about what it was. We were some of the first American travelers that they had seen since lockdown. I imagine now it’s a more widely known proof of vaccination.
    - mrtksn 5y ago
      Countries can also independently accept other countries certificates. Turkey initially procured Chinese vaccine which is not accepted by EU but some EU countries with strong ties to Turkey will accept people who are vaccinated using that vaccine too. Also, Turkey had a certificate system before the EU Green Pass and were accepted by those countries.
    - Denatonium 5y ago
      These days, in France, you can go to basically any pharmacy and get a CDC card converted into an EU Digital COVID certificate for €36. This certificate is then valid in all EU countries.
      - radicalbyte 5y ago
        Do you have a source for that? Or know anyone who has actually done that? Specifically, persons not resident in FR, or not citizens of FR?
- radicalbyte 5y ago
  The EU explicitly wants countries to join. The EU-DCC is designed to be an international system - lots of EU countries already had domestic systems, so we focused the design explicitly on being a state-verified (and managed, and policed) proof of vaccination. Only States can sign the EU-DCC, and to do so they must meet various standards for security (proper key management, opsec, HSM, crypto strength). They must also agree to accept the EU-DCC of all other member countries, and respect privacy. And police their systems (identity and arrest frauders). All pretty standard things, and a great complement to the systems used domestically. Having a state provide an abstraction layer of their local issuers is super effective - how can you expect an American state to do quality controle on a Russian pharmacy who are signing a Smart Health Card? They have to invade Russia to police it?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
version_five 5y ago
Until recently, I've always thought one of the pillars of western society was that we rarely have to interact with government and be subject to the whims of government bureaucracy. Basically, this is the only way to live with how bad bureaucracy is and how poorly it serves edge cases. Your example - "if you're not in the system you don't exist" is exactly why nobody should be prevented from going about their lives at the whims of government provided data. I actually think this should be a fundamental freedom.
- ASalazarMX 5y ago
  Are passports and visas included in the "whims of government provided data"? It would be an interesting time if the invention of passports was abolished.
  - version_five 5y ago
    Do you usually have to show your passport to eat at a restaurant? If you're American, would you like to see a European system where you have to show your passport at hotels?
    - usrusr 5y ago
      If you're American, you must be used to stuff like being required to show your driver's license for admittance to a brewery. I'd call it a draw.
      - version_five 5y ago
        Since I was about 25, I've generally avoided places that ask for my ID - or treat me like a here animal in any other way. Same reason I don't go to Costco/Walmart. The difference is that businesses normally have a choice in how they treat people. For the vaccine rules I've seen, businesses all treat you like a presumed criminal until you prove otherwise. This is not something I would pay for. And as I said, in a free society, businesses and their customers would have a choice, without government interference, and that dynamic would decide what they chose to do.
csunbird 5y ago
The pharmacies in Germany will issue you a certificate if you ask nicely, with your native vaccination documents and your passport.
- radicalbyte 5y ago
  Do you have a source for that? Or know anyone who has actually done that? Specifically, persons not resident in DE, or not citizens of DE?
  - csunbird 5y ago
    I did that for my friend visiting me in Germany

whalesalad 5y ago

Fear has overridden the rational mind of many people in the current period.

ASalazarMX 5y ago
In both directions. Some take extreme precautions because of fear, others take extreme risks because of fear.

meheleventyone 5y ago

I wondered how true this was, but Argentina seems to have digital proof of vaccination: https://www.argentina.gob.ar/miargentina/servicios/vaccine_covid https://www.argentina.gob.ar/miargentina/servicios/vaccine_c... Or are you saying that the EU won't accept this as proof of vaccination?

askonomm 5y ago
First of the digital certificate is a joke, since it can't actually be obtained via the Mi Argentina app, where it fails to show up. When contacting the government, they will tell you that they are working on that (?). But what I meant was proof for a foreign country, yes, that is meant for when traveling. So not only does most of EU not accept Sinopharm vaccines, which is what I got here (there was no ability to choose), but I also don't have proof that works outside of Argentina (and, well, not even IN Argentina).
- meheleventyone 5y ago
  That definitely sounds like a total pain. I presume it's resolvable if you can get vaccinated where you are now and make sure with a doctor you've had a suitable delay between the shots (as with booster shots).
mrtksn 5y ago
EU Green Pass system includes all EU countries and some non-eu countries listed here and Argentina is not in the list at the moment: https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/coronavirus-response/safe-covid-19-vaccines-europeans/eu-digital-covid-certificate_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/coronavirus-re... I believe, countries that want their certificate be accepted by EU need to macth the EU requirements and formats. For example, Turkey is in the list and the Turkish vaccine certificate system will generate a QR code upon your request that is valid in the EU.
- tyre 5y ago
  I was in France in August. We had our American vax paper pass. Most of the time it was accepted without anything. Only once did we have to talk with a government official about what it was. We were some of the first American travelers that they had seen since lockdown. I imagine now it’s a more widely known proof of vaccination.
  - mrtksn 5y ago
    Countries can also independently accept other countries certificates. Turkey initially procured Chinese vaccine which is not accepted by EU but some EU countries with strong ties to Turkey will accept people who are vaccinated using that vaccine too. Also, Turkey had a certificate system before the EU Green Pass and were accepted by those countries.
  - Denatonium 5y ago
    These days, in France, you can go to basically any pharmacy and get a CDC card converted into an EU Digital COVID certificate for €36. This certificate is then valid in all EU countries.
    - radicalbyte 5y ago
      Do you have a source for that? Or know anyone who has actually done that? Specifically, persons not resident in FR, or not citizens of FR?
radicalbyte 5y ago
The EU explicitly wants countries to join. The EU-DCC is designed to be an international system - lots of EU countries already had domestic systems, so we focused the design explicitly on being a state-verified (and managed, and policed) proof of vaccination. Only States can sign the EU-DCC, and to do so they must meet various standards for security (proper key management, opsec, HSM, crypto strength). They must also agree to accept the EU-DCC of all other member countries, and respect privacy. And police their systems (identity and arrest frauders). All pretty standard things, and a great complement to the systems used domestically. Having a state provide an abstraction layer of their local issuers is super effective - how can you expect an American state to do quality controle on a Russian pharmacy who are signing a Smart Health Card? They have to invade Russia to police it?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

version_five 5y ago

Until recently, I've always thought one of the pillars of western society was that we rarely have to interact with government and be subject to the whims of government bureaucracy. Basically, this is the only way to live with how bad bureaucracy is and how poorly it serves edge cases. Your example - "if you're not in the system you don't exist" is exactly why nobody should be prevented from going about their lives at the whims of government provided data. I actually think this should be a fundamental freedom.

ASalazarMX 5y ago
Are passports and visas included in the "whims of government provided data"? It would be an interesting time if the invention of passports was abolished.
- version_five 5y ago
  Do you usually have to show your passport to eat at a restaurant? If you're American, would you like to see a European system where you have to show your passport at hotels?
  - usrusr 5y ago
    If you're American, you must be used to stuff like being required to show your driver's license for admittance to a brewery. I'd call it a draw.
    - version_five 5y ago
      Since I was about 25, I've generally avoided places that ask for my ID - or treat me like a here animal in any other way. Same reason I don't go to Costco/Walmart. The difference is that businesses normally have a choice in how they treat people. For the vaccine rules I've seen, businesses all treat you like a presumed criminal until you prove otherwise. This is not something I would pay for. And as I said, in a free society, businesses and their customers would have a choice, without government interference, and that dynamic would decide what they chose to do.

csunbird 5y ago

The pharmacies in Germany will issue you a certificate if you ask nicely, with your native vaccination documents and your passport.

radicalbyte 5y ago
Do you have a source for that? Or know anyone who has actually done that? Specifically, persons not resident in DE, or not citizens of DE?
- csunbird 5y ago
  I did that for my friend visiting me in Germany