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> Did Prussia really influence US education philosophy more than Britain did? I find that a bit hard to believe. Yes, if only because the people (General Educa

> Did Prussia really influence US education philosophy more than Britain did? I find that a bit hard to believe. Yes, if only because the people (General Education Board: Frederick Taylor Gates; Massachusetts Board of Education: Horace Mann; medical schools: Abraham Flexner) behind all of the school boards were "convinced" of the efficacy of the Prussian/German systems -- having all personally visited them (but never for any long enough period to see their outcomes). > My question remains - why is Prussian educational thought considered influential in the USA by the author, and no thought given to British educational thought? Because both the U.S. and the U.K. did not have any wide-spread educational systems (the U.K. primarily had some religious schools) until the middle/end of the 19th century. The reforms in the U.K. to get more schools were driven by the government, while the reforms in the U.S. were primarily driven by ex-unitarian preachers. They evolved side-by-side, and by circumstance did not really have much influence on the other.

EdwardDiego 5y ago
You're talking systems, I asked about philosophy. It's easy to agree that the Prussian state educational philosophy was focused on building good citizens for a nation state embroiled in near continuous war, or threatened by hovering on the horizon storm clouds of the next war. But you can use a Prussian system to deliver results according to American ideals - the Prussian system doesn't necessitate Prussian ideals. It's like how you can do Kanban, without building cars in a very homogeneous society.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > It's easy to agree that the Prussian state educational philosophy was focused on building good citizens for a nation state embroiled in near continuous war, or threatened by hovering on the horizon storm clouds of the next war. Well, yes, since it is factually true. > But you can use a Prussian system to deliver results according to American ideals Well, yes, since actual American educational ideals, especially of the ruling class, involve a very similar concept of a “good citizen” to that of the Prussian model, and not even Prussia of the time the model was invented was as continuously engaged in war for as long as the US has been.
- BlueTemplar 5y ago
  Well, up to some point. If the Prussian system was so wildly successful in the West it was because it fit so well the new concept of Nation-States and the new technic of the printing press. I see this article as symptomatic of the situation having radically changed between wars now being unthinkable between nuclear-armed powers (and their close allies), and more recently the rise of the the World Wide Web. I would, however, not be so dismissive of Nation-States and the need of citizen endoctrination as the author is : you can easily end up with something way worse, like an Empire or tribal chaos ! (But then the author seems to be focused on the USA, which has always been a weird blend of Nation and Empire...)
- throwaway2331 5y ago
  In the case of philosophy, any semblance of it in the systems we're talking about is strictly post hoc: there was no "philosophy" involved -- only politics and the egos of those involved (see: Frederick William III). The primary catalyst for "Prussian Schooling Reforms" was Frederick William III's defeat to Napoleon at Jena, and all that ensued after. Prussia's new "soldier unit" schooling system was a reaction to this. It is inseparable from "Prussian ideals" (or more accurately, ends and means that are strictly "Prussian"). The ends involved with the "Prussian Schooling Reforms" were to create an underclass of citizens that could be used to fulfill the state's ends. The corresponding means was the schooling system. In the case of the U.S., the ends were to enrich its proponents, and give them a bigger "power base." The "adoption" of the "Prussian Schooling System" was the means to this end. The ends are very similar, and of a similar "family." This is a messy conversation, only because the idea of "ideals" and "philosophy" are always post hoc. Rarely does any public policy anywhere stem from "ideals" or "philosophy" -- those are always selling points, and even red herrings, to rally others under a single banner to reach a certain end.
eesmith 5y ago
> both the U.S. and the U.K. did not have any wide-spread educational systems How wide-spread does it need to be to be influential? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monitorial_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monitorial_System including https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_school_(England_and_Wales) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_school_(England_and_W... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Stow#The_Glasgow_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Stow#The_Glasgow_System which mostly replaced the Monitorial System. And the US had schools before the influence of the Prussian model - where do you think their educational models came from, and do you think that influence suddenly disappeared?
- throwaway2331 5y ago
  As I understand it, Britain's "grammar schools" did have an influence/were imported to the U.S. into the New England area. However, these were not free -- and I'm certain the reason for not allowing them to be more "widespread" (but this is a relative term). Later on funding for public and compulsory (see: free) schooling would come in (philanthropic contributions/foundations in the U.S., and parliament funding in the U.K.) which would lead to them becoming "widespread" (or atleast, greatly more in relation to where they were before). After this period, I have not done any more reading into Britain's system---only the U.S.'s; wherein, the G.E.B was setup to increase access to (and decide the vision of) public schooling for all, primarily in the South (which relied primarily on private tutors to teach the children of means). These "grammar schools" following in the image of its U.K. counterparts did not suddenly disappear; but their impact on---already minor, due to tuitions---the greater public was overshadowed by the G.E.B's vastly deeply coffers, and likewise ability to reach more children. While the ends of early "grammar schools" in New England were to teach the Classics, and "enrich" the sons of the elite; the ends of G.E.B's were: "In our dream, we have limitless resources and the people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hand. The present educational conventions fade from their minds; and, unhampered by tradition, we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive rural folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning, or men of science. We have not to raise up from among them authors, editors, poets or men of letters. We shall not search for embryo great artists, painters, musicians nor lawyers, doctors, preachers, politicians, statesmen, of whom we have an ample supply…The task we set before ourselves is very simple as well as a very beautiful one, to train these people as we find them to a perfectly ideal life just where they are… So we will organize our children into a little community and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way, in the homes, in the shops and on the farm."[0] I.e. an incomprehensible and non-communicated vision of Frederick Taylor Gates, that one is left to make sense of with his own devices. Nonetheless, these "Prussian Schools" were free from the influence of the common higher-class schooling of the time. The Prussian Model is a misnomer. It's the "Frederick Taylor Gates" model, that spins and weaves various notions taken from all sorts of places, into an energizing story that helped him escape being a lowly preacher, to a person of means and "importance," via backing by John D. Rockefeller Sr. (in return, the latter continued his campaign of damage control against his public image and legacy). [0] https://archive.org/details/countryschoolof00gate/page/6/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/countryschoolof00gate/page/6/mod...

EdwardDiego 5y ago

You're talking systems, I asked about philosophy. It's easy to agree that the Prussian state educational philosophy was focused on building good citizens for a nation state embroiled in near continuous war, or threatened by hovering on the horizon storm clouds of the next war. But you can use a Prussian system to deliver results according to American ideals - the Prussian system doesn't necessitate Prussian ideals. It's like how you can do Kanban, without building cars in a very homogeneous society.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> It's easy to agree that the Prussian state educational philosophy was focused on building good citizens for a nation state embroiled in near continuous war, or threatened by hovering on the horizon storm clouds of the next war. Well, yes, since it is factually true. > But you can use a Prussian system to deliver results according to American ideals Well, yes, since actual American educational ideals, especially of the ruling class, involve a very similar concept of a “good citizen” to that of the Prussian model, and not even Prussia of the time the model was invented was as continuously engaged in war for as long as the US has been.
BlueTemplar 5y ago
Well, up to some point. If the Prussian system was so wildly successful in the West it was because it fit so well the new concept of Nation-States and the new technic of the printing press. I see this article as symptomatic of the situation having radically changed between wars now being unthinkable between nuclear-armed powers (and their close allies), and more recently the rise of the the World Wide Web. I would, however, not be so dismissive of Nation-States and the need of citizen endoctrination as the author is : you can easily end up with something way worse, like an Empire or tribal chaos ! (But then the author seems to be focused on the USA, which has always been a weird blend of Nation and Empire...)
throwaway2331 5y ago
In the case of philosophy, any semblance of it in the systems we're talking about is strictly post hoc: there was no "philosophy" involved -- only politics and the egos of those involved (see: Frederick William III). The primary catalyst for "Prussian Schooling Reforms" was Frederick William III's defeat to Napoleon at Jena, and all that ensued after. Prussia's new "soldier unit" schooling system was a reaction to this. It is inseparable from "Prussian ideals" (or more accurately, ends and means that are strictly "Prussian"). The ends involved with the "Prussian Schooling Reforms" were to create an underclass of citizens that could be used to fulfill the state's ends. The corresponding means was the schooling system. In the case of the U.S., the ends were to enrich its proponents, and give them a bigger "power base." The "adoption" of the "Prussian Schooling System" was the means to this end. The ends are very similar, and of a similar "family." This is a messy conversation, only because the idea of "ideals" and "philosophy" are always post hoc. Rarely does any public policy anywhere stem from "ideals" or "philosophy" -- those are always selling points, and even red herrings, to rally others under a single banner to reach a certain end.

eesmith 5y ago

> both the U.S. and the U.K. did not have any wide-spread educational systems How wide-spread does it need to be to be influential? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monitorial_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monitorial_System including https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_school_(England_and_Wales) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_school_(England_and_W... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Stow#The_Glasgow_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Stow#The_Glasgow_System which mostly replaced the Monitorial System. And the US had schools before the influence of the Prussian model - where do you think their educational models came from, and do you think that influence suddenly disappeared?

throwaway2331 5y ago
As I understand it, Britain's "grammar schools" did have an influence/were imported to the U.S. into the New England area. However, these were not free -- and I'm certain the reason for not allowing them to be more "widespread" (but this is a relative term). Later on funding for public and compulsory (see: free) schooling would come in (philanthropic contributions/foundations in the U.S., and parliament funding in the U.K.) which would lead to them becoming "widespread" (or atleast, greatly more in relation to where they were before). After this period, I have not done any more reading into Britain's system---only the U.S.'s; wherein, the G.E.B was setup to increase access to (and decide the vision of) public schooling for all, primarily in the South (which relied primarily on private tutors to teach the children of means). These "grammar schools" following in the image of its U.K. counterparts did not suddenly disappear; but their impact on---already minor, due to tuitions---the greater public was overshadowed by the G.E.B's vastly deeply coffers, and likewise ability to reach more children. While the ends of early "grammar schools" in New England were to teach the Classics, and "enrich" the sons of the elite; the ends of G.E.B's were: "In our dream, we have limitless resources and the people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hand. The present educational conventions fade from their minds; and, unhampered by tradition, we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive rural folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning, or men of science. We have not to raise up from among them authors, editors, poets or men of letters. We shall not search for embryo great artists, painters, musicians nor lawyers, doctors, preachers, politicians, statesmen, of whom we have an ample supply…The task we set before ourselves is very simple as well as a very beautiful one, to train these people as we find them to a perfectly ideal life just where they are… So we will organize our children into a little community and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way, in the homes, in the shops and on the farm."[0] I.e. an incomprehensible and non-communicated vision of Frederick Taylor Gates, that one is left to make sense of with his own devices. Nonetheless, these "Prussian Schools" were free from the influence of the common higher-class schooling of the time. The Prussian Model is a misnomer. It's the "Frederick Taylor Gates" model, that spins and weaves various notions taken from all sorts of places, into an energizing story that helped him escape being a lowly preacher, to a person of means and "importance," via backing by John D. Rockefeller Sr. (in return, the latter continued his campaign of damage control against his public image and legacy). [0] https://archive.org/details/countryschoolof00gate/page/6/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/countryschoolof00gate/page/6/mod...