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> Because the essay is about public education, e.g. state funded education. Not the history of all education. Public education in the West was pioneered by Prus

> Because the essay is about public education, e.g. state funded education. Not the history of all education. Public education in the West was pioneered by Prussia in the 18th Century and then copied by other nations in the late 19th Century My question remains - why is Prussian educational thought considered influential in the USA by the author, and no thought given to British educational thought? Because one guy visited Prussia to see their system? It's not like the USA's lower house of government is called the Diet, I'm pretty sure the USA does things the USA way, education included. If you want to strongly link Prussian educational thought to American educational thought, you might have to prove it beyond "this guy who thought education was important visited Prussia". PS - Horace Mann, yep, visited Prussia. However, didn't say shit about "let's use schools to control the people". Which even the author acknowledges with a a slight sneer: > Mann may have not been as explicit as his German counterparts in his hopes for social control (But he totally was for it, trust me, I'm a substack author).

mdorazio 5y ago
Come on, the parent post just answered your question again after it was already answered in the article, and you completely ignored it again. > Moreover the article traces the history of this movement by Horace Mann, an expert on Prussian education and the acknowledged "Father of public education" in the U.S. The person who basically founded the US public education system based it on the Prussian system, not the British one.
- EdwardDiego 5y ago
  Did you read my reply at all? Mann visited Prussia. Apparently he was an expert on Prussian education (No citations given, but let's take it said). Does that imply Prussian education systems? Or Prussian education values? Because, as I literally quoted the author saying, Mann isn't on record saying "Let's control the people, mwahahaha, wait, don't quote me on that", the author is heavily inferring it with no evidence.
  - mdorazio 5y ago
    I genuinely don't understand how you're not making that logical connection here. It seems you're looking for some document where Mann says, "Look at me, I'm specifically basing my views on the Prussian system rather than the Prussian education values". This is absurd.
    - EdwardDiego 5y ago
      Why? US's upper house is called the Senate, nobody has stabbed in the back by multiple senators once! Plenty of systems are adopted without also adopting the values they evolved alongside. China and free markets. Lots of software companies and Agile. Various "democracies" with the system, but none of the values of "don't commit voting fraud, don't intimate opposition voters" etc. Adopting a system isn't predicated on adopting the values the system was designed in.
BlueTemplar 5y ago
Because everyone in the West (including Britain and even the USSR) copied the Prussian model of education ?
- EdwardDiego 5y ago
  Maybe they did. But if they did, did they copy the Prussian value of education as a form of social control? Citations needed.
- eesmith 5y ago
  Everyone copied from each other and made modifications. The Prussian influence on the US education system is well known. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system#Unit... . The thing is, that connection cannot be looked at in isolation. The main modern influence from the Prussian system we retain is in funding compulsory education through taxes. But US educators would also have been influenced by other education forms, like the Lancaster System (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monitorial_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monitorial_System "based on the abler pupils being used as 'helpers' to the teacher, passing on the information they had learned to other students"). When that didn't work out so well, in part because the students didn't handle the factory-like/mechanical form of training, people tried the Glasgow System (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Stow#The_Glasgow_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Stow#The_Glasgow_System ), which emphasized the training of teachers. And guess what - the Prussian model also emphasizes the training of teachers. So when this essay points out how elementary school teachers need to be credentialed under the Prussian system, is that specially a Prussian thing? Or a Glasgow thing that the Prussians copied? Really, read http://hackeducation.com/2015/04/25/factory-model http://hackeducation.com/2015/04/25/factory-model .
6510 5y ago
The way I understand the CONSPIRACY THEORY: As the mind forms it can be trained to generically look at what is provided and attempt to combine those parts into desired configurations. You end up with nodes sorted into a tree like structure where options are a first class citizen. What is commonly called the prusian system of education is more focused on hammering in lists of items. You end up with a smooth brain that operates in predefined steps. In this model the student is accused of lack of focus when they consider alternative options or if a new bit of information triggers seemingly unrelated thought. The chains of instructions are eventually tied into closed inescapable loops. If you later in life suggest to them that alternative approaches are possible they get furious as if you've cast doubt on their very essence which in a way you did. The story goes that the main selling point of the system was that it produces soldiers that can march to their inevitable death while carefully preserving formation.

mdorazio 5y ago

Come on, the parent post just answered your question again after it was already answered in the article, and you completely ignored it again. > Moreover the article traces the history of this movement by Horace Mann, an expert on Prussian education and the acknowledged "Father of public education" in the U.S. The person who basically founded the US public education system based it on the Prussian system, not the British one.

EdwardDiego 5y ago
Did you read my reply at all? Mann visited Prussia. Apparently he was an expert on Prussian education (No citations given, but let's take it said). Does that imply Prussian education systems? Or Prussian education values? Because, as I literally quoted the author saying, Mann isn't on record saying "Let's control the people, mwahahaha, wait, don't quote me on that", the author is heavily inferring it with no evidence.
- mdorazio 5y ago
  I genuinely don't understand how you're not making that logical connection here. It seems you're looking for some document where Mann says, "Look at me, I'm specifically basing my views on the Prussian system rather than the Prussian education values". This is absurd.
  - EdwardDiego 5y ago
    Why? US's upper house is called the Senate, nobody has stabbed in the back by multiple senators once! Plenty of systems are adopted without also adopting the values they evolved alongside. China and free markets. Lots of software companies and Agile. Various "democracies" with the system, but none of the values of "don't commit voting fraud, don't intimate opposition voters" etc. Adopting a system isn't predicated on adopting the values the system was designed in.

BlueTemplar 5y ago

Because everyone in the West (including Britain and even the USSR) copied the Prussian model of education ?

EdwardDiego 5y ago
Maybe they did. But if they did, did they copy the Prussian value of education as a form of social control? Citations needed.
eesmith 5y ago
Everyone copied from each other and made modifications. The Prussian influence on the US education system is well known. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system#Unit... . The thing is, that connection cannot be looked at in isolation. The main modern influence from the Prussian system we retain is in funding compulsory education through taxes. But US educators would also have been influenced by other education forms, like the Lancaster System (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monitorial_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monitorial_System "based on the abler pupils being used as 'helpers' to the teacher, passing on the information they had learned to other students"). When that didn't work out so well, in part because the students didn't handle the factory-like/mechanical form of training, people tried the Glasgow System (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Stow#The_Glasgow_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Stow#The_Glasgow_System ), which emphasized the training of teachers. And guess what - the Prussian model also emphasizes the training of teachers. So when this essay points out how elementary school teachers need to be credentialed under the Prussian system, is that specially a Prussian thing? Or a Glasgow thing that the Prussians copied? Really, read http://hackeducation.com/2015/04/25/factory-model http://hackeducation.com/2015/04/25/factory-model .

6510 5y ago

The way I understand the CONSPIRACY THEORY: As the mind forms it can be trained to generically look at what is provided and attempt to combine those parts into desired configurations. You end up with nodes sorted into a tree like structure where options are a first class citizen. What is commonly called the prusian system of education is more focused on hammering in lists of items. You end up with a smooth brain that operates in predefined steps. In this model the student is accused of lack of focus when they consider alternative options or if a new bit of information triggers seemingly unrelated thought. The chains of instructions are eventually tied into closed inescapable loops. If you later in life suggest to them that alternative approaches are possible they get furious as if you've cast doubt on their very essence which in a way you did. The story goes that the main selling point of the system was that it produces soldiers that can march to their inevitable death while carefully preserving formation.