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Wait, so, you're going to start with Prussia's rather, shall we say, statist education system, and completely ignore Britain's similar industrial age education

Wait, so, you're going to start with Prussia's rather, shall we say, statist education system, and completely ignore Britain's similar industrial age education system? Why focus on Prussia, not Britain? Did Prussia really influence US education philosophy more than Britain did? I find that a bit hard to believe. Love this "source" in this paragraph: > It should be noted that prior to the Civil War, the large majority of Americans were not slaves, indentured servants, nor employees of other people. The source being a link to a 372 page scanned PDF. No page numbers for that reference. Just a thoroughly unsearchable and massively long PDF. Nice reference bro. > The thread of school being used for ulterior motives runs right up to the present day. In 1967, a book... Today I learned that 54 years ago is "present day" when discussing education. Why do I feel like the author had a really bad time at high school?

rsj_hn 5y ago
>Wait, so, you're going to start with Prussia's rather, shall we say, statist education system, and completely ignore Britain's similar industrial age education system? Why focus on Prussia, not Britain? Because the essay is about public education, e.g. state funded education. Not the history of all education. Public education in the West was pioneered by Prussia in the 18th Century and then copied by other nations in the late 19th Century: "Prussia was among the first countries in the world to introduce tax-funded and generally compulsory primary education.[3] In comparison, in France and Great Britain, compulsory schooling was not successfully enacted until the 1880s.[4]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system Moreover the article traces the history of this movement by Horace Mann, an expert on Prussian education and the acknowledged "Father of public education" in the U.S. > Today I learned that 54 years ago is "present day" when discussing education. That's not what the essay says. Let me help in explaining what a period means: it ends one thought and starts another. Let me help explain what a paragraph does: it groups thoughts together. Often the first sentence of the paragraph makes a thesis, and then what follows provides evidence for the thesis. So he says it continues until the present, and then as evidence of this continuation he cites data from 1967, 1976, 1980s, 1998, 2008, 2016. That is meant to show continuation until the present.
- EdwardDiego 5y ago
  > Because the essay is about public education, e.g. state funded education. Not the history of all education. Public education in the West was pioneered by Prussia in the 18th Century and then copied by other nations in the late 19th Century My question remains - why is Prussian educational thought considered influential in the USA by the author, and no thought given to British educational thought? Because one guy visited Prussia to see their system? It's not like the USA's lower house of government is called the Diet, I'm pretty sure the USA does things the USA way, education included. If you want to strongly link Prussian educational thought to American educational thought, you might have to prove it beyond "this guy who thought education was important visited Prussia". PS - Horace Mann, yep, visited Prussia. However, didn't say shit about "let's use schools to control the people". Which even the author acknowledges with a a slight sneer: > Mann may have not been as explicit as his German counterparts in his hopes for social control (But he totally was for it, trust me, I'm a substack author).
  - mdorazio 5y ago
    Come on, the parent post just answered your question again after it was already answered in the article, and you completely ignored it again. > Moreover the article traces the history of this movement by Horace Mann, an expert on Prussian education and the acknowledged "Father of public education" in the U.S. The person who basically founded the US public education system based it on the Prussian system, not the British one.
    - EdwardDiego 5y ago
      Did you read my reply at all? Mann visited Prussia. Apparently he was an expert on Prussian education (No citations given, but let's take it said). Does that imply Prussian education systems? Or Prussian education values? Because, as I literally quoted the author saying, Mann isn't on record saying "Let's control the people, mwahahaha, wait, don't quote me on that", the author is heavily inferring it with no evidence.
      - 5y ago
throwaway2331 5y ago
> Did Prussia really influence US education philosophy more than Britain did? I find that a bit hard to believe. Yes, if only because the people (General Education Board: Frederick Taylor Gates; Massachusetts Board of Education: Horace Mann; medical schools: Abraham Flexner) behind all of the school boards were "convinced" of the efficacy of the Prussian/German systems -- having all personally visited them (but never for any long enough period to see their outcomes). > My question remains - why is Prussian educational thought considered influential in the USA by the author, and no thought given to British educational thought? Because both the U.S. and the U.K. did not have any wide-spread educational systems (the U.K. primarily had some religious schools) until the middle/end of the 19th century. The reforms in the U.K. to get more schools were driven by the government, while the reforms in the U.S. were primarily driven by ex-unitarian preachers. They evolved side-by-side, and by circumstance did not really have much influence on the other.
- EdwardDiego 5y ago
  You're talking systems, I asked about philosophy. It's easy to agree that the Prussian state educational philosophy was focused on building good citizens for a nation state embroiled in near continuous war, or threatened by hovering on the horizon storm clouds of the next war. But you can use a Prussian system to deliver results according to American ideals - the Prussian system doesn't necessitate Prussian ideals. It's like how you can do Kanban, without building cars in a very homogeneous society.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > It's easy to agree that the Prussian state educational philosophy was focused on building good citizens for a nation state embroiled in near continuous war, or threatened by hovering on the horizon storm clouds of the next war. Well, yes, since it is factually true. > But you can use a Prussian system to deliver results according to American ideals Well, yes, since actual American educational ideals, especially of the ruling class, involve a very similar concept of a “good citizen” to that of the Prussian model, and not even Prussia of the time the model was invented was as continuously engaged in war for as long as the US has been.

rsj_hn 5y ago

>Wait, so, you're going to start with Prussia's rather, shall we say, statist education system, and completely ignore Britain's similar industrial age education system? Why focus on Prussia, not Britain? Because the essay is about public education, e.g. state funded education. Not the history of all education. Public education in the West was pioneered by Prussia in the 18th Century and then copied by other nations in the late 19th Century: "Prussia was among the first countries in the world to introduce tax-funded and generally compulsory primary education.[3] In comparison, in France and Great Britain, compulsory schooling was not successfully enacted until the 1880s.[4]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system Moreover the article traces the history of this movement by Horace Mann, an expert on Prussian education and the acknowledged "Father of public education" in the U.S. > Today I learned that 54 years ago is "present day" when discussing education. That's not what the essay says. Let me help in explaining what a period means: it ends one thought and starts another. Let me help explain what a paragraph does: it groups thoughts together. Often the first sentence of the paragraph makes a thesis, and then what follows provides evidence for the thesis. So he says it continues until the present, and then as evidence of this continuation he cites data from 1967, 1976, 1980s, 1998, 2008, 2016. That is meant to show continuation until the present.

EdwardDiego 5y ago
> Because the essay is about public education, e.g. state funded education. Not the history of all education. Public education in the West was pioneered by Prussia in the 18th Century and then copied by other nations in the late 19th Century My question remains - why is Prussian educational thought considered influential in the USA by the author, and no thought given to British educational thought? Because one guy visited Prussia to see their system? It's not like the USA's lower house of government is called the Diet, I'm pretty sure the USA does things the USA way, education included. If you want to strongly link Prussian educational thought to American educational thought, you might have to prove it beyond "this guy who thought education was important visited Prussia". PS - Horace Mann, yep, visited Prussia. However, didn't say shit about "let's use schools to control the people". Which even the author acknowledges with a a slight sneer: > Mann may have not been as explicit as his German counterparts in his hopes for social control (But he totally was for it, trust me, I'm a substack author).
- mdorazio 5y ago
  Come on, the parent post just answered your question again after it was already answered in the article, and you completely ignored it again. > Moreover the article traces the history of this movement by Horace Mann, an expert on Prussian education and the acknowledged "Father of public education" in the U.S. The person who basically founded the US public education system based it on the Prussian system, not the British one.
  - EdwardDiego 5y ago
    Did you read my reply at all? Mann visited Prussia. Apparently he was an expert on Prussian education (No citations given, but let's take it said). Does that imply Prussian education systems? Or Prussian education values? Because, as I literally quoted the author saying, Mann isn't on record saying "Let's control the people, mwahahaha, wait, don't quote me on that", the author is heavily inferring it with no evidence.
    - 5y ago

throwaway2331 5y ago

> Did Prussia really influence US education philosophy more than Britain did? I find that a bit hard to believe. Yes, if only because the people (General Education Board: Frederick Taylor Gates; Massachusetts Board of Education: Horace Mann; medical schools: Abraham Flexner) behind all of the school boards were "convinced" of the efficacy of the Prussian/German systems -- having all personally visited them (but never for any long enough period to see their outcomes). > My question remains - why is Prussian educational thought considered influential in the USA by the author, and no thought given to British educational thought? Because both the U.S. and the U.K. did not have any wide-spread educational systems (the U.K. primarily had some religious schools) until the middle/end of the 19th century. The reforms in the U.K. to get more schools were driven by the government, while the reforms in the U.S. were primarily driven by ex-unitarian preachers. They evolved side-by-side, and by circumstance did not really have much influence on the other.

EdwardDiego 5y ago
You're talking systems, I asked about philosophy. It's easy to agree that the Prussian state educational philosophy was focused on building good citizens for a nation state embroiled in near continuous war, or threatened by hovering on the horizon storm clouds of the next war. But you can use a Prussian system to deliver results according to American ideals - the Prussian system doesn't necessitate Prussian ideals. It's like how you can do Kanban, without building cars in a very homogeneous society.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > It's easy to agree that the Prussian state educational philosophy was focused on building good citizens for a nation state embroiled in near continuous war, or threatened by hovering on the horizon storm clouds of the next war. Well, yes, since it is factually true. > But you can use a Prussian system to deliver results according to American ideals Well, yes, since actual American educational ideals, especially of the ruling class, involve a very similar concept of a “good citizen” to that of the Prussian model, and not even Prussia of the time the model was invented was as continuously engaged in war for as long as the US has been.