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Which is why mechanisms like carbon tariffs on imports are being designed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_Border_Adjustment_Mechanism https://en.wikipedi

Which is why mechanisms like carbon tariffs on imports are being designed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_Border_Adjustment_Mechanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_Border_Adjustment_Mecha...

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
That seems like it could become very messy and open to fraud. The nice thing about carbon tariffs within borders is they would be trivial to implement because there are relatively few targets (oil wells, coal mines, etc).
- rubinelli 5y ago
  Most messy problems can't be solved by neat solutions. Without tariffs, countries will be incentivized to use lax emission control as a competitive advantage.
- timbit42 5y ago
  Yeah, you're right. We should just give up.
xyzzy123 5y ago
Do you think the natural game theoretic result might be "carbon havens"? Areas that have the worst carbon enforcement / corruption (so issuing certificates to avoid tariffs etc without real action) would be more competitive than areas with effective enforcement so they will attract the most manufacturing. I don't think importing from countries without a carbon price will be a problem (border taxes seem like they can work). I suspect the problem will be that for countries that DO set a carbon price it is in everyone's interest within that country that the system not actually be effective.
- pydry 5y ago
  If high levels of fraud are detected other countries can just slap high "emergency" tarriffs until the country fixes the problem. This would most certainly disincentivize lax enforcement. The problem has always been lack of a will, not a way.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- lovemenot 5y ago
  Perhaps this can work as strategic arms limitation treaties: trust but verify. Satellite monitoring is almost at the point where an individual country may be held accountable for emissions from their territory.
bronzeage 5y ago
Even tariffs won't be enough. Iran is the 8th carbon emitter in the world despite heavy sanctions and tariffs and their entire oil export are under heavy sanctions, they export only a small fraction of what they can. China will never cooperate, and they are 29% of the worlds emissions. We need to realize there are simply more evil countries that don't care and will never care and prepare for the world after the warming. "Luckily" the warming will at least make all those Arabic countries exporting oil uninhabitable so we've got a chance they'll eventually change.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago

That seems like it could become very messy and open to fraud. The nice thing about carbon tariffs within borders is they would be trivial to implement because there are relatively few targets (oil wells, coal mines, etc).

rubinelli 5y ago
Most messy problems can't be solved by neat solutions. Without tariffs, countries will be incentivized to use lax emission control as a competitive advantage.
timbit42 5y ago
Yeah, you're right. We should just give up.

xyzzy123 5y ago

Do you think the natural game theoretic result might be "carbon havens"? Areas that have the worst carbon enforcement / corruption (so issuing certificates to avoid tariffs etc without real action) would be more competitive than areas with effective enforcement so they will attract the most manufacturing. I don't think importing from countries without a carbon price will be a problem (border taxes seem like they can work). I suspect the problem will be that for countries that DO set a carbon price it is in everyone's interest within that country that the system not actually be effective.

pydry 5y ago
If high levels of fraud are detected other countries can just slap high "emergency" tarriffs until the country fixes the problem. This would most certainly disincentivize lax enforcement. The problem has always been lack of a will, not a way.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
lovemenot 5y ago
Perhaps this can work as strategic arms limitation treaties: trust but verify. Satellite monitoring is almost at the point where an individual country may be held accountable for emissions from their territory.

bronzeage 5y ago

Even tariffs won't be enough. Iran is the 8th carbon emitter in the world despite heavy sanctions and tariffs and their entire oil export are under heavy sanctions, they export only a small fraction of what they can. China will never cooperate, and they are 29% of the worlds emissions. We need to realize there are simply more evil countries that don't care and will never care and prepare for the world after the warming. "Luckily" the warming will at least make all those Arabic countries exporting oil uninhabitable so we've got a chance they'll eventually change.