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> If people need to get to work and heat their homes etc. then putting a tax on all of that will hit them hard while the rich will be relatively unaffected and

by yunohn 5y ago

> If people need to get to work and heat their homes etc. then putting a tax on all of that will hit them hard while the rich will be relatively unaffected and can continue polluting. So much this. Here in NL, my heating bill is 70% tax and 30% gas charges (not exaggerating). The government claims to do this to encourage installation of better insulation and other energy saving measures - however, as a renter (like the vast majority of NL is), I can’t do anything about this and just pay the exorbitant heating bill (1). I have no option but to use gas, and even if I move to a (rare) neighborhood with city heating, they’ll charge me the same amount (2). (1) https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2021/09/as-gas-bills-rise-more-households-fall-victim-to-energy-poverty/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2021/09/as-gas-bills-rise-more... (2) https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2021/11/homes-with-district-heating-systems-may-still-be-hit-by-higher-gas-bills/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2021/11/homes-with-district-he...

Vinnl 5y ago
To be fair, the policy was to raise gas taxes while lowering those on electricity in a way that it evens out for most people. Additionally, while I don't know the numbers of renters vs. buyers, I do know that the vast majority of renters in NL live in social housing, which means the government has some leverage there to get the housing corporations to lower gas use.
- yunohn 5y ago
  My electricity bill is less than 10x lower than my heating bill, with all taxes accounted for. Electronics are surprisingly efficient - radiator heating is definitely not. > social housing, which means the government has some leverage I’m not sure if you’ve seen social housing, or even the average rental in places like The Hague. They are definitely not maintained well - insulation or otherwise. Whatever the gov “could” do, isn’t being done. Other than high taxes.
RobinL 5y ago
Most renters still have the option to turn down the thermostat though, so whilst the ability to respond to incentives may be dampened, they should still have an effect. Admittedly, there are some rentals with bills included. But if gas was very expensive, few landlords would offer it.
- yunohn 5y ago
  > Most renters still have the option to turn down the thermostat though I can’t tell if this is serious? You’re saying that the gov policy’s effect should be the common man freezing during winter? I don’t know anyone who runs their heating for shits and giggles. > Admittedly, there are some rentals with bills included I’ve seen very few (<10%) of rentals that come with utilities included. It wouldn’t make sense either, I’d rather pay for my usage. Not the upper limit of usage that the landlord is accounting for while determining rent.
  - RobinL 5y ago
    > I don’t know anyone who runs their heating for shits and giggles. Heating isn't a binary thing - we want people to minimise their use of gas within reason. Most people I know could turn their heating down a couple of degrees and put on a warmer jumper, some thermal underwear, or sit with a hot water bottle whilst at their desk if working from home. I've managed to save >30% of my households gas usage in this way. Yes, there are people on the poverty line who already use their heating at a minimal level. And at risk elderly people. This problem is best solved with subsidies to these specific groups, rather than gas that is too cheap for everyone relative to its environmental impacts. This view (that a sizable portion of people can reasonably turn down their heat) is substantiated by UK government research, see e.g. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/251785/what_people_want_from_their_heating_controls_qualitative_study.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... For instance, there are lots of people heating rooms they don't even use, and heating their whole house overnight.
    - yunohn 5y ago
      > I've managed to save >30% of my households gas usage in this way. That’s good for you! I fully support educating families that are indeed superfluously running heating. However, I would also like the exorbitant taxes to go towards actually fixing insulation/heating, or investigating/penalising landlords that don’t fix the overpriced rentals they provide.
surrehuet 5y ago
If your gas bill is increased then your ability to spend money on rent decreases. Wouldn't this in turn decrease demand for energy ineffective apartments giving an incentive for landlords to take energy saving measures?
- yunohn 5y ago
  That only works in a balanced supply-demand market. Housing is an essential requirement, and is severely under serving demand in NL. https://www.iamexpat.nl/housing/real-estate-news/urgent-call-big-cities-government-tackle-dutch-housing-crisis https://www.iamexpat.nl/housing/real-estate-news/urgent-call...

by yunohn 5y ago

Vinnl 5y ago

To be fair, the policy was to raise gas taxes while lowering those on electricity in a way that it evens out for most people. Additionally, while I don't know the numbers of renters vs. buyers, I do know that the vast majority of renters in NL live in social housing, which means the government has some leverage there to get the housing corporations to lower gas use.

yunohn 5y ago
My electricity bill is less than 10x lower than my heating bill, with all taxes accounted for. Electronics are surprisingly efficient - radiator heating is definitely not. > social housing, which means the government has some leverage I’m not sure if you’ve seen social housing, or even the average rental in places like The Hague. They are definitely not maintained well - insulation or otherwise. Whatever the gov “could” do, isn’t being done. Other than high taxes.

RobinL 5y ago

Most renters still have the option to turn down the thermostat though, so whilst the ability to respond to incentives may be dampened, they should still have an effect. Admittedly, there are some rentals with bills included. But if gas was very expensive, few landlords would offer it.

yunohn 5y ago
> Most renters still have the option to turn down the thermostat though I can’t tell if this is serious? You’re saying that the gov policy’s effect should be the common man freezing during winter? I don’t know anyone who runs their heating for shits and giggles. > Admittedly, there are some rentals with bills included I’ve seen very few (<10%) of rentals that come with utilities included. It wouldn’t make sense either, I’d rather pay for my usage. Not the upper limit of usage that the landlord is accounting for while determining rent.
- RobinL 5y ago
  > I don’t know anyone who runs their heating for shits and giggles. Heating isn't a binary thing - we want people to minimise their use of gas within reason. Most people I know could turn their heating down a couple of degrees and put on a warmer jumper, some thermal underwear, or sit with a hot water bottle whilst at their desk if working from home. I've managed to save >30% of my households gas usage in this way. Yes, there are people on the poverty line who already use their heating at a minimal level. And at risk elderly people. This problem is best solved with subsidies to these specific groups, rather than gas that is too cheap for everyone relative to its environmental impacts. This view (that a sizable portion of people can reasonably turn down their heat) is substantiated by UK government research, see e.g. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/251785/what_people_want_from_their_heating_controls_qualitative_study.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... For instance, there are lots of people heating rooms they don't even use, and heating their whole house overnight.
  - yunohn 5y ago
    > I've managed to save >30% of my households gas usage in this way. That’s good for you! I fully support educating families that are indeed superfluously running heating. However, I would also like the exorbitant taxes to go towards actually fixing insulation/heating, or investigating/penalising landlords that don’t fix the overpriced rentals they provide.

surrehuet 5y ago

If your gas bill is increased then your ability to spend money on rent decreases. Wouldn't this in turn decrease demand for energy ineffective apartments giving an incentive for landlords to take energy saving measures?

yunohn 5y ago
That only works in a balanced supply-demand market. Housing is an essential requirement, and is severely under serving demand in NL. https://www.iamexpat.nl/housing/real-estate-news/urgent-call-big-cities-government-tackle-dutch-housing-crisis https://www.iamexpat.nl/housing/real-estate-news/urgent-call...